Uncle Benny! Definitely a very solid first Benjen. It's fine for him to "die" (in most cases) okay to get killed since he doesn't get put in the dead pile. Plus, all of your Rangers can't be bypassed by stealth so Benny can only get better with time.

Ok, here's a question that came up: (still foggy, but pretty sure of the result, just checking)

Can you benefit from the +2 Power and still save Benjen from leaving the board, if you use as an example Maester Aemon's ability:

"Interrupt: When a [Night's Watch] character would be killed, kneel Maester Aemon to save it."

From a previous post I read: "Benjen's ability puts 2 power on your faction before the "death" actually completes."

I think no, since Aemon's interrupt says "would be killed"...?

Yeah there's a timing difference,  The window for Would be triggers is before then When is triggers, so once you're up to using Benjen's ability your past the point of being able to save him

I heard there was a thing where if you have a Quentyn and a Benjen on the board, you wildfire, kill both, make quentyn kill Benjen it counts as him dying twice and u get 4 power. an expensive jank combo. correct me if this is BS

Wildfire is about to kill both Benjen and Quentyn.

- Interrupt to Wildfire: Benjen gives you 2 power and sets up a replacement effect - when Wildfire resolves, Benjen will go into the deck instead of the discard pile.

- Interrupt to Wildfire: Quentyn kills Benjen.

- - Interrupt to Quentyn's ability: Benjen gives you 2 power and sets up a replacement effect - when Quentyn's ability resolves, Benjen will go into the deck instead of the discard pile.

- - Quentyn's ability resolves. Benjen goes into the deck instead of the discard pile.

Wildfire resolves, kills Quentyn. Benjen is no longer on the board.

Benjen is hands down the best character NW have at the minute. First of all, he's the one of the only POW icons they have on a decent str character above 3g, which is very important as apart from Alliser (who is way over costed/not good), Old Bear (not appropriate for every deck, especially if you're not running KoS/Fealty) and the Ranging Party, NW are lacking for >3g POW characters. Secondly, shutting down stealth across all Rangers is HUGE, especially as more and more good Rangers come out. Thirdly, he nets you 2 power for your faction when he dies, and does not go to the dead pile. If you're running Wildfire you can essentially win the game at 13 power if he's on the board. In a post Valar meta, he gets even better.

Basically, there is 0 reason why this guy should not be x3 in your NW decks for a long time to come.

You seem to think of NW decks as solely The Wall decks. I'm playing an aggressive choking NW+Lion deck with Varys and White Tree and without The Wall, and I don't have a single copy of Benjen in that deck. The "hands down the best character" for me is Yoren.

There is solid reason for playing x2. Two I would say:

-you do not want to dupe him

-Watch has needs is sufficient to find him most times.

I don't play Wall with NW. I play him in a choke deck. With x3 Varys, so don't make assumptions. I still run him x3, I want to see him as much as possible. He is still hands down the best character NW has. Yoren is situational - great when you have targets, crap when you don't. All I can say is if you're not running Benjen x2 at least then you're handicapping yourself. 

Aemon is looking at your post and laughs.

When it comes to best NW characters, Aemon and Benjen are the cream of the crop.

Qhorin will challenge for the title as well, but I'm not sure if he'll take it from them.

Also Messenger Raven. All 4 will be top notch characters for the length of their time in the game (Qhorin won't be evergreen.)

What about Thoren?

Thoren will be force of nature. He will change how other factions play the game, if he is on board of course.

There will be no more weak "kneel some defenders" challanges. One defended challange with Thoren on board and some renown character (Qhorin) on board will be equal to successfully defending the Wall, with Castle black that is just insane. In a game that winning challanges in offence is the key to victory, Thoren is the "go against the current" sign.

If opponent decides not to attack us, in order to not give us power, he will activate Wall and/or Mormont.

Thoren is the promised card!

Shadow Tower already made people stop doing "kneel some defenders" challenges. I think Thoren will be good, but if you can't win the challenges, he won't have any impact, just like Shadow Tower. Qhorin, Aemon and Benjen, on the other hand, impact the game when they enter the game, regardless of how your board state is.

If you do not win challanges in defence, then you most likely do not win them in offence, meaning you should stop playing defensive NW, because you, kind of, miss the point what  Walling is about. Thoren is a card that finally will make all this defending worth it, actually pursue win condition and all you can say is "Shadow Tower makes it too".

Now, that there is Arry, Craven and Edd, every challange type can be won. Thoren shifts board state in your favor, only thing that is left to do then, is to secure going second.

Shadow Tower already made people stop doing "kneel some defenders" challenges. I think Thoren will be good, but if you can't win the challenges, he won't have any impact, just like Shadow Tower. Qhorin, Aemon and Benjen, on the other hand, impact the game when they enter the game, regardless of how your board state is.

You're the NW master, but I still can't follow your logic. Doesn't Qhorin have the same condition as Thoren? If you don't win with Qhorin, he doesn't have an effect, same as Thoren. Aemon and Benjen effect anywa, as you said

You're the NW master, but I still can't follow your logic. Doesn't Qhorin have the same condition as Thoren? If you don't win with Qhorin, he doesn't have an effect, same as Thoren. Aemon and Benjen effect anywa, as you said

Qhorin's ability can occur on offense or defense. See, with Thoren your opponent won't declare any challenge that they cannot, on a purely mathematical basis, win. If they can only win a power challenge that round, they'll only declare a power challenge that round. So the ability to win on defense depends on your opponent to declare the challenges. If your opponent doesn't declare challenges, you don't gain power from Thoren. Qhorin, on the other hand, can kill defensively or, if they just decide not to do a military challenge because of his presence, Qhorin can trigger his abilityon offense as well.

In addition, Thoren does run the risk of your opponent trapping you. For example, if they have enough military power to get by one of your two military defenders, say you have Thoren and Benjen as military defenders, but not both they can declare the challenge and then, if you use both defenders to win, maybe now they can win a power challenge, equaling a net zero gain of power for you. Or, if you really screwed up, it could open you up to unopposed challenges if you over commit too much. Obviously, that is a player error, but those types of things do happen.

Bottom line, if you have Thoren out and they don't declare any challenges that they can't win, he doesn't gain you any power. He is just a deterrent. Which is great. But it certainly isn't as game breaking as one save per round in Aemon or Stealth prevention, eternal life AND 2 power from Benjen, nor do I think it will be as good as Qhorin who is targeted kill that works on both offense and defense.

Not to mention the fact that Thoren is a monocon, which just sucks...

He'll be a nice 1 or 2x ranger. But I don't imagine he'll be a center piece, as Benjen and Aemon are and what I expect Qhorin to be.

If you do not win challanges in defence, then you most likely do not win them in offence, meaning you should stop playing defensive NW, because you, kind of, miss the point what  Walling is about. Thoren is a card that finally will make all this defending worth it, actually pursue win condition and all you can say is "Shadow Tower makes it too".

 

Now, that there is Arry, Craven and Edd, every challange type can be won. Thoren shifts board state in your favor, only thing that is left to do then, is to secure going second.

I don't understand your first sentence. Defensive NW decks don't need to win on defense to get the Wall power. I've won plenty of games where my opponent is winning more challenges than they lose on offense. Thoren won't change that by himself. I'm sorry if you felt my response was dismissive. It's just how I view Thoren. He's a monocon so he won't be contributing to most of the challenges in a phase. So his effect will be largely static except in military challenges. With him on the board or without him, if your opponent could win an intrigue challenge or a power challenge, then playing him doesn't change that at all. All it would do is maybe dissuade them from doing a military challenge, which people are already motivated not to do against NW anyway, as they have Watcher on the Walls and Maester Aemon.

I'm not saying Thoren will be bad. It's just...he's a lot like a location. And, like Shadow Tower, he won't really make you win more challenges on defense, he'll mostly just make your opponent not declare as many challenges in general. Which is great. Just not as game changing as Benjen, Aemon or Qhorin.

Now, if he were a builder? With a power icon? That would change everything. But he was given the worst icon for a NW character, as it is currently the only icon that NW can give to almost any character, especially on defense. So, for the time being, he is a perpetual monocon.

Thoren, comparing to Wall, is very setup-friendly. With him on board you can execute all defensive maneuvers you would do with Wall (Castle Black, Edd, Thorne) and have instant benefit from it. Right now I would say that Wall is addition to Thoren in matter of defensive play, not the other way around.

In order to fully benefit from Thoren you will have to use all NW techniques, all this Halder STR-pumping, Watcher on the Wall. Your top priority will be making your opponent believe he can win his challange instead of simply opposing everything what is thrown at you.

Sad truth is , you are rigth, he would be 2x better if he had Pow Icon. In my opinion Ranger is still better than Builder.

Thoren, comparing to Wall, is very setup-friendly. With him on board you can execute all defensive maneuvers you would do with Wall (Castle Black, Edd, Thorne) and have instant benefit from it. Right now I would say that Wall is addition to Thoren in matter of defensive play, not the other way around.

In order to fully benefit from Thoren you will have to use all NW techniques, all this Halder STR-pumping, Watcher on the Wall. Your top priority will be making your opponent believe he can win his challange instead of simply opposing everything what is thrown at you.

 

Sad truth is , you are rigth, he would be 2x better if he had Pow Icon. In my opinion Ranger is still better than Builder.

I disagree. The Wall will still be the focus of defensive decks. Thoren relies on your opponent declaring challenges in order for you to gain power from him. If your opponent can only win the power challenge, they'll just do the power challenge. In fact, with decks like Stark Fealty with all their renown, you'll often see them just do one challenge per turn: one enormous power challenge. Thoren doesn't help in that match up at all. That means Thoren won't get you any power that turn. The Wall will still get you 2 power that turn.

They will work well together though, as one encourages doing all 3 challenges and the other discourages doing any challenge that cannot be won definitively.

I would have preferred he be a 5 cost bicon with a power icon than a 4 cost monocon. But that seems to be the theme with NW characters. You can't help but wish they just had one more freaking icon...I felt that was with Stonesnake, I felt that way with Sweet Donnel Hill and I feel that way about Thoren. Each of these characters would be absolutely brilliant with one more icon. Unfortunately, they don't and that will hamper Thoren in terms of ranking among the best NW characters.

I currently have space for 1 of him, I believe. I think I'm going to test him at 2x when he's released to see if there's enough there to warrant two slots.

Totally agree on your remarks on Thoren. Just not sure if Qhoren will be that game changing in defensive walling decks. In aggressive or choke, yes. But in walling (what I play)? His 6 cost will make it hard, maybe in exchange of the Old Bear, but I love the Bear and his raven. I won't say he will not, but I wouldn't bet. He surely will be cool anyway, though

Even without the murder ability, having renown in a defensive deck is money. At the very least, I'll be replacing my 1x Alliser with Qhorin. And then I'm sure I could find 1 or 2 more slots for printed renown that can't be milked .

printed renown that can't be milked

That's where it's at

So! If the Mountain were to pillage Benjen from the deck and, due to Mountain's effect, put Benjen in the dead pile. 

Would you get 2 power and shuffle him back in your deck?

So! If the Mountain were to pillage Benjen from the deck and, due to Mountain's effect, put Benjen in the dead pile. 

Would you get 2 power and shuffle him back in your deck?

Nope, because Benjen have to be killed to be able to do that. Ser Gregor would not kill him, just discard him to a dead pile. Also Benjen would not be triggered if he's Marched or got rid by Varys - those are all discard effects.

That is, "killed" and "put in the dead pile" are different things, even though they have the same result (a character in the dead pile). This is similar to how "marshaling" a card and "playing" a card are different things.