Ered Luin Miner

[EDIT: deleted duplicate post that was awaiting moderator approval]

Does Cirdan the Shipwright's ability:

Forced: After drawing cards at the beginning of the resource phase, choose and discard 1 of those cards.

count as discarded from the top of your deck?

I would say no, because you draw them into your hand and they are discarded from there.

It could work with Expert Treasure Hunter, King Under the Mountain, A Very Good Tale, Flame of Anor, Well-Equipped, Zigil Miner, Emery, Ered Nimrais Prospector and Longbeard Sentry.

I can see why you would argue that it works with King Under the Mountain but I disagree with the assessment all the same.

Unless of course you can point to an authoritative source, which directly discusses King Under the Mountain in such a capacity.

At first I was going to say that King Under the Mountain does not work with the Miner, but actually it does, as the word "look" means that the card do not leave your deck until you do one of these two:

1) discard the first card and draw the second, which means that you are discarding the top card of your deck;

2) draw the first one, which makes the second one the top card and then discard it.

Both of the above trigger the Response, and I don't see anything against the rest of the cards slothgodfather suggested as well.

Yea, because there is no interim point for the card in terms of game mechanics.  It is either part of the top of your deck, or it is in your hand.  While you are looking at it, it is still part of the top of your deck.  That's my take on it anyways.  I can't remember if there has been any actual ruling on it.

At first I was going to say that King Under the Mountain does not work with the Miner, but actually it does

At least it sounds assertive; any authoritative ruling to back this statement?

At least it sounds assertive; any authoritative ruling to back this statement?

Any authoritative ruling to say it doesn't work?   Why don't you think it works?

This is going to take a long time when our respective arguments are: "Why would it work?" vs "Why wouldn´t it work?"

I have already pointed out that I can see the argument for it to work, but that I disagree with it, because I can also see the argument the other way around.

Just because someone asserts a ruling based on their own justification doesn´t automatically make it right. You might be right but then again so might I. I am open to both interpretations but leaning more heavily towards the combo suggested is not working.

Which is why I am asking if you have a ruling from someone with the authority to make it.

I am gathering from you response that the answer is "no" though.

Time to make a rules inquiry (when/if I´m bothered enough by it)

Here is a generic transcription from above:

s: it works with KutM

n: nope, I disagree.

s: here is why i think it works. <reason>

n: source?

s: nope. do you have a source/reason for why you think it doesn't work?

n: nope and i'm not bothered enough to care any more

s: recap.

All I'm getting at there is you haven't given a reason for why you think it doesn't work.  I do get, and agree, that we can see the argument go either way.  My reasoning for it not function is it's textual difference from Hidden Cache, though I still lean towards it working.  

Anyways, I did bring this question up on the FFG forums last week and it has had a discussion/comparison with some other cards of similar/dissimilar abilities.  It can be found here.  I believe Donkler is going to submit the rules question, so I'm not going to atm.  Will post back when we get an official response.

@VicTiger

Yes Círdan makes you draw an additional card from the top of the encounter deck. But he ads it to his hand and then once it is in his hand he must discard a card. This is much more straightforward than the KutM-question as the card is in your hand when you discard it because the discarding effect clearly specifies that it occurs after the card draw. So in short: no, Ered Luin Miner does not work with Círdan

@Sloth

I already said that I can see the argument for the KutM-combo and had assumed the argument against it to be equally visible.

The argument simply being that when you "look at cards" they could be assumed to be in a quasi-state that is neither on top of the deck or in your hand and effects that trigger off either location would not affect them in this state.

Here are few responses we got from Caleb about this character:

With regards to A Very Good Tale and then with regards to Throngs of Unfaithful (enemy):

Ered Luin Miner’s ability will trigger anytime he discarded by an effect that discards cards from the top of your deck. That does allow you to put him into play in the manner you describe in your example with A Very Good Tale. The Miner’s ability does not trigger when it is discarded from the bottom of your deck, even if it is the only card in your deck.

With regards to King Under the Mountain:

If you discard Ered Luin Miner with King Under the Mountain you can trigger the Miner's effect to put it into play because you are discarding it from the top of your deck. “Looking” at the top 2 cards of your deck does not move them from the top of your deck.

Here are few responses we got from Caleb about this character:

 

With regards to A Very Good Tale and then with regards to Throngs of Unfaithful (enemy):

Ered Luin Miner’s ability will trigger anytime he discarded by an effect that discards cards from the top of your deck. That does allow you to put him into play in the manner you describe in your example with A Very Good Tale. The Miner’s ability does not trigger when it is discarded from the bottom of your deck, even if it is the only card in your deck.

That is a little unexpected - so a single card can only be on the top or on the bottom. This means that the cards' text modify even the general condition of cards, and their state is binary - they can have only one index, place, state etc.

That is some Schrodinger shenanigans right there. Regardless, thanks for bringing the clarification!