Well then, having this chap in play seems rather nice.

[CoughPlayaPromiseofGloryandgetatotalof3xfreedeploymentstallsCough]

Sacrifice a Cultist unit at this planet

Indeed - seemed a little OP too

Excellent synergy with Vha'shaelhur though

Not so great, Vae generates Cultists at HQ. Tower of Worship can help there e some left over to be committed though.

Or you could just play the cultist units that aren't tokens, like Splintered Path Acolyte, Chaos Fanatics or Ravening Psychopath.

Yes, but Acolytes are needed for getting more Daemons mostly, Fanatics are winning command, so I'm swapping them out to gain 1 card but the same hammers which seems like a shrug, and psychopaths are meant to be fighting though I guess if they are just about to die you could quickly look for a useful card during battle.

Those aren't terrible options, you're right, I just don't know if they suit me.

I don't think they suit anyone to be honest, which is why I don't think we'll see the Seekers used a lot.

until we get the effects, that spawn cultist tokens at the planet (something like troop transport, snotling attack, etc) this card is useless.

You do know that Cultists in hq travel with the warlord ?

Also there is Teleportarium to move Elite units to other planets.

Then it can be any cultist unit, it doesnt have to be a token.

Yet another really strong and playable elite for Chaos. I wish FFG would print something like this for Tyranids but nooooooooo, 

Yet another really strong and playable elite for Chaos. I wish FFG would print something like this for Tyranids but nooooooooo, 

Tyranids don't have strong and playable elites?

They have some of the best in the game.

Tyranids don't have strong and playable elites?

 

They have some of the best in the game.

People keep saying this and it keeps me wonder. Either people don't play tyranids at all or they don't understand anything regarding the game and its mechanics.

Tyranids atm have 3 5cost elites.

Ygrarl Genestealer, HarusPex and Ravener.

the first is 4/4.It need a warlord and a synapse to become 6/6 meaning that you will loose command if you send either with it. If you don't then gg you paid 5 resources for a 4/4 with 2 hammers.

The second is 3/5 with one hammer. Maybe if you manage to kill something with it you will gain some resources back once per turn but since it's 3 attack it's highly possible that will fail.

The third one is 3/5 and if it kills something it's readies.Well one is good.

I am not saynd tyranids have bad elites but i would trade them any day  with other 5 cost elites.

We are marching into an elite meta and we are about to witness the huge power difference between tyranids elite and other factions elites.

Either people don't play tyranids at all or they don't understand anything regarding the game and its mechanics.

Could we drop the "if you disagree with me, it must be because you don't know anything about the game" attitude? That'd be great. Thanks.

the first is 4/4.It need a warlord and a synapse to become 6/6 meaning that you will loose command if you send either with it. If you don't then gg you paid 5 resources for a 4/4 with 2 hammers.

But your opponent has to consider that this 4/4 could at any moment become a 6/6 depending on how you (and they) commit. And a 6/6 is scary. One of the 'nid warlords also allows it be ambushed in, which is terrifying.

The second is 3/5 with one hammer. Maybe if you manage to kill something with it you will gain some resources back once per turn but since it's 3 attack it's highly possible that will fail.

With an Ymgarl Factor, or a HVC it can kill stuff pretty damn reliably.

The third one is 3/5 and if it kills something it's readies.Well one is good.

As above. If this one gets an attachment that boosts its attack, it can win a planet by itself in a single combat round.

You could argue that they lack sufficient command units to reliably support an elite deck (although the elite deck I've been playing with a handful of times really hasn't had a problem with that), but their elite units themselves are pretty damn solid, and they've got some excellent attachments to back them up.

Aside from warlord train the only way I can think of to get cultists is with Xavaes.

Xavaes also spawns cultists into the HQ

@Desseas, for reference there's actually 4 5-cost Tyranid elites at the moment given the recent release of the recent release of the Caustic Tyrannofex (although that's nothing to cry home about either). I don't think it's wise to only look at the 5 cost elites since the Biovore Spore Launcher does some serious work in the Swarmlord, and the Harpy isn't terrible. Also, the strength of the Ymgarl Genestealer is moreso in the surprise of ambushing it in than its raw stats. Given that attack is far more important than hp, and that its stats get boosted by either player meeting its conditions, it's a superb warlord hunter in Omega, and to a lesser extent with the other warlords via Sudden Adaptation. It's all about the faction it's in as well. I wouldn't take Gleeful Plaugebeasts, as good as they are, in a Coteaz deck, for example

​Additionally, this is not a "really strong and playable elite". This is a blank card that very situationally will give you cards that's only saving grace is the Daemon trait, although you'll end up sacrificing the cultists needed to fund its ability in order to fund the card itself. Otherwise, it's just a slightly worse Leman Russ, and that barely sees play as it is

The reason i am refering to 5 cost elites is because the 6 cost ones are not worth mentioning. Harpy is a monster against swarm if you can also infest(ELITE meta anyone?)

And i wont even bother with hivemind units elite or not. The whole idea of hivemind failed from day one. It is not competitive, it's only there to play for fun.

And yes i am judging card from a competitive point of view otherwise everything is solid. I you think tyranid elites are fine and that the new 4/4 that gives armorbane to gaunts IF you win command is another adition to our great collection then we don't have much to talk about. Next in the line is an elite that will give brutal to termagaunts and i am sure people again will state that it can be good....

Check out the new vehicles eldar got.

You speak about Sudden Adaptation as if it's a good card...Dark cunning is better every day. Cards that require specific requirements to be met are not good unless they do something extraordinary. Gift of isha is a good example.

Also @ jalf. reading your answer basically what you say is that tyranids have great attachments. I agree with that ofc. Maybe the only reason tyranids see some top cuts in the tournaments are the attachments they play. Regeneration,HVC and now factor are 3 of tyranids best cards. Take these attachments and put them in any elite and it's a monster!

then we don't have much to talk about

For the second time, could you drop the attitude, please? If you want to discuss the viability of cards in the card pool, let's do so in a constructive tone, please.
These constant potshots and insults and dismissals of others are kind of making it hard to take your comments seriously.

@ jalf. reading your answer basically what you say is that tyranids have great attachments

They do, but I said more than that. Try re-reading my comment.

Take these attachments and put them in any elite and it's a monster!

But other elites do not have access to those attachments. That's how the game is balanced. A faction that can easily buff elites to incredible strengths probably should not also be given elites that don't *need* buffing. Otherwise, they'll create an unstoppable out-of-control monster.

Harpy is a monster against swarm if you can also infest(ELITE meta anyone?)

So because the card is only amazing against every deck that has been popular up until a few months ago, and isn't necessarily going to be amazing against every deck in the future as well, the card isn't even worth talking about? I disagree with that.

Seekers of Slaanesh are crap: they have slightly below the curve stats (for 5 cost the standard is 5/5 and 2 hammers; the Vyper for example loses one point of HP since its abilities are so good) with an ability that's going to be useful once in a blue moon - unless of course, as others said, we get new cards that conveniently generate Cultists at a planet, of which we have no hint however.

Ditto for the new Eldar elites, which look all but crappy to me, so complaining that the other factions get *good* cards *only* is off the point, IMO.

Re: the discussion about Tyranids elites, I mostly agree with Deassas' assessments (I think Harpy is  a strong card and Ravener is a mediocre one, but agree on all the rest, and on the Dark Cunning>Sudden Adaptation as well).

Jalf, as for the way Deassas puts his arguments I reckon it might not be totally good form, but it seems to me what he's saying is that he has very strong reasons to believe his assessment is right, he is not meaning any offense to you.

I had a similiar discussion once on another forum which ended up generating a lot of negativity, which was mostly due to a misunderstanding.

The way I understand it, he's saying that if you don't agree on the fact the Tyrannofex is crap, then your 'standards' are so different - since for him that's as crappy a card as it gets - that you two won't be able to agree on the rest.

I think probably deassas should try to express his opinions in a 'softer' way. However I also think he is right on the point: if you're claiming Tyranids elites are good because they become very strong with a 3 res 1 card investment on top of the 5 res 1 card already needed your reasoning is not solid: *a lot* of factions can present such a big threat - most of the times a bigger one, actually - with that many resources.

In the case of attachments you're also putting all your eggs into a single basket, which makes it all the more vulnerable to point removal.

I think it's clear that the *competitive* (as Deassas said, if you play for fun anything goes) reality of this game - even post Backlash - punishes everyone who has to make such a big investment to present a credible threat while being open to spot removal; if you can play a 3-card combo - elite, Cannon, Backlash - why shouldn't your opponent be able to play 2 Archon's Terrors/Klaivexes?

Not to mention that often you do not have the extra resources needed to play the attachments, in which case being stuck with a subpar card is a recipe for disaster.

 

Jalf, as for the way Deassas puts his arguments I reckon it might not be totally good form, but it seems to me what he's saying is that he has very strong reasons to believe his assessment is right, he is not meaning any offense to you.

I had a similiar discussion once on another forum which ended up generating a lot of negativity, which was mostly due to a misunderstanding.

I'm sure he doesn't mean any offense (and I'm not at all offended). I just think it's worthwhile to try to keep a respectful tone precisely to avoid generating negativity. People tend to respond to aggressive or negative comments with more of the same. Let's all be better than that.

As to the viability of 'nid elites (this admittedly changes the discussion a bit from "do the 'nids have good elite units", to "can you build good elite decks with 'nids), I wonder if either of you have tried out this deck?

The Tac Squad pretty much seems to be in awe of it, even in competitive settings. I've been playing 8-10 matches with it so far as well, and while I'm not an expert 'nid player, I'm really impressed and surprised by it as well, both in terms of raw power and consistency.

Anyway, my point was really just, let's discuss cards and decks without claiming that people who disagree are ignorant of how the game works. Cheers!

The reason i am refering to 5 cost elites is because the 6 cost ones are not worth mentioning. Harpy is a monster against swarm if you can also infest(ELITE meta anyone?)

And i wont even bother with hivemind units elite or not. The whole idea of hivemind failed from day one. It is not competitive, it's only there to play for fun.

And yes i am judging card from a competitive point of view otherwise everything is solid. I you think tyranid elites are fine and that the new 4/4 that gives armorbane to gaunts IF you win command is another adition to our great collection then we don't have much to talk about. Next in the line is an elite that will give brutal to termagaunts and i am sure people again will state that it can be good....

Check out the new vehicles eldar got.

You speak about Sudden Adaptation as if it's a good card...Dark cunning is better every day. Cards that require specific requirements to be met are not good unless they do something extraordinary. Gift of isha is a good example.

Take a breath and step back, you've gone on the offensive for no real reason. To reiterate, I merely mentioned that the other 5 cost elite existed, quickly followed by me saying that it was "nothing to cry home about" (i.e. not a good card). I also mentioned that the Harpy isn't terrible, which doesn't mean that it's a tier 1 card either but can fit certain decks and is worth mentioning even if I, personally, don't think it's worth running.

I'd say that the best 3 elites for each of the Nid warlords are the Ymgarl for Omega, Ravener for OOE and the Biovore for the Swarmlord. Whilst the Hivemind specialisation has been poorly executed overall, most notably due to the lack of command hammers on a lot of the units, the Biovore is definitely the best of those cards. It's not difficult to get a few tokens at the planet you want to have a fight on and get a Biovore there as well, either readied or coming in exhausted from HQ, and the constant AoE barrages will quickly deal with enemy armies. If you don't think it's competitive you should try playing in Switzerland. Those guys have got Tyranids covered and have made competitive decks for all 3 warlords.

Regarding Dark Cunning and Sudden Adaptation, I personally think both should be run in an elite deck since they both fulfil the same purpose (turning an exhausted elite into a readied one). They both have conditions which are dependent on how the game's gone, both require 2 resources in order to play them, and both have conditional conditions, but Sudden Adaptation has a much larger upside (replacing a damaged elite with a healthy one). As such, Dark Cunning is a slightly more consistent card since it can always be used, but that doesn't mean that Sudden Adaptation should be ignored completely (hell you've tried to say that Seekers of Slaanesh are good, and they're far more conditional than SA), and as such I'd consider running 2 of each.

The biggest issue Tyranids have at the moment is their command game, not the elites. I can happily make a deck with 6-9 Nid elite cards but then be forced to take all of the infestation tech because there's no other command units. The Lictor helps this out somewhat, and going ultra heavy on the infestation with the new Synapse potentially allows for more Y'varn triggers (albeit inconsistently and probably still a worse choice than the Lictor), but what they really need is another 1-1 unit. It can have blank stats with just 1hp for all I care, they just need another one.

@Jalf,

i think the problem is that it is difficult, especially on the internet, to clearly differentiate when one is criticising a statement (which is what makes a discussion possible in the first place) from when one is criticising the person who's making said statement.

Anyway, back to the discussion, Deassas came up second at a regional in Greece using a deck very similiar to the one you've linked.

As for myself, as soon as LoD was spoiled I jotted down a very similiar deck (but didn't test it until a month later, since I was a lot more excited for the other options). Great minds think alike? Honestly 'Nids has so few options that it's no surprise all those decks are so similiar.

Now I've played with it many times I've come to the conclusion it's a cool deck but it just isn't that competitive, since pound for pound whatever you play is inferior to your opponents', whereas your command with the Lictor is just about on par, if not below, that of the stronger decks.

OOE used to be a very decent warlord in the immediate post-GD meta - I've played as it quite a lot back then. Now the meta's different, and OOE's once strong suits are barely enough to keep it afloat. For example, its ability isn't cutting it anymore now that spike damage is all around.

Just to be clear, Kith was superior to OOE before and she still is, it's just that now there are too many new contenders that outshine the old Carnifex - which doesn't prevent a competent player from having good results with it since it's not awful or anything, but it's at a disadvantage when playing against top tier decks.

@Kaloo

Deck space is incredibily tight already in the event department (Backlash, No Mercy, Dark Cunning), so, since I wouldn't run Sudden Adaptation over No Mercy, it has to be left out if it's inferior to DC.

However, back on topic, Vhae'shaellhur's ability is not as good as it looks on paper - way too many limitations. It's not nearly enough the give the Seekers some value, so I'm afraid they'll end up in the binder.

Think about this way: how often would you rather play the Seekers instead of a Possessed in an Elite meta?

I think one should also not forget that the card draw isn't free: one is exchanging a potential resource for a card, so they're not nearly as good as they might seem. To be fair, the more I think about them the more I think they should be rated as a blank 4/5 95% of the times.

Having proxied Vha'shaelhur with Seekers, I find I try to get out pretty much any of my other elites before I try to bring these guys out. I'm just not thrilled with them.

Seekers of Slaanesh are crap: they have slightly below the curve stats (for 5 cost the standard is 5/5 and 2 hammers; the Vyper for example loses one point of HP since its abilities are so good) with an ability that's going to be useful once in a blue moon - unless of course, as others said, we get new cards that conveniently generate Cultists at a planet, of which we have no hint however.

 

 

What standard is this? There is not a single Elite at 5 that is 5/5 with 2 hammers, and the majority(16 of the 28) have 8 points distributed to health and attack, not 10.

The Vyper is bonkers good, and cards like Possessed are outliers. In fact the Vyper is the ONLY 5 cost elite with 5 attack, and only 3 others have an attack over 4(Ramshackle, Goff Nob, Possessed).

For 5, the Tyranids are not bad. I quite like the Haruspex/Ymgarl/Striking rav. But we have had this discussion before, and with Desseas in other Tyranid threads.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Yet another really strong and playable elite for Chaos. I wish FFG would print something like this for Tyranids but nooooooooo, 

The Ymgarl Genestealer from The Great Devourer is 10 times better than this Chaos card. Now if we are comparing apples to apples and re-skin this chaos dude into a 4/5 2 hammer guy for 5r Tyranid Leviathan with an "action: Sacrifice a Termagant token at this planet to draw a card", then I guess it becomes interesting, as a Loamy Broodhive would become card draw

I still find the general "meh" feelings on the Ymgarl Genestealer interesting. Put him at planet 1 for a steal, or your opponents Warlord is looking at a 6/4. Not bad right? And again as mentioned, the Tyranid niche is powerful attachments, and easy "No Mercy" use. Everyone can cry about "too many cards" or "too combo-y" but c'mon.

Would you rather have a re-skinned Tyranid version of Seekers of Slaaneesh, or an Ymgarl Factor? Cause a faction is not going to have both... 

What standard is this? There is not a single Elite at 5 that is 5/5 with 2 hammers, and the majority(16 of the 28) have 8 points distributed to health and attack, not 10.

It's not the standard considering the number of cards that fit it, it's the standard considering the cost/stats ratio (4 costers have a sum of ATK+HP equal to 8, as a standard). The fact those other Elites that don't fit this are not played competitively (unless they have an awesome ability: Venomous Fiend, Terminators etc. etc. ) speaks for itself.