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- Deck: Kithmera Choke: 1st Place Worlds 2015
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Kithmera Choke: 1st Place Worlds 2015
Submitted by
GKZhukov
, Nov 10 2015 08:17 PM | Last updated Apr 04 2016 03:37 PM
- VonWibble, ellonellanfair, SammyBoyFTW and 13 others like this
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Dark Eldar Eldar
Control Tournament Quality
Warlord
Order by:
Name Type Cost
Name Type Cost
Total Cards: 0
For original UK NAT list & Tournament report:-
http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/wh40kconquest/warhammer-40-000-conquest-decks-section/_/warhammer-40-000-conquest-decks/de-choke-1st-place-uk-nationals-r85
http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/26080-uk-nationals-tournament-report/
The deck has undergone only a couple of very minor changes since then.
1/ No Doom. I didn't use it once in NATs, and not for a while before that either. I replaced it with a 3rd Superiority, but could just as easily have gone with a 2nd Foretell.
2/ I dropped 2 Suffering for 2 Shadow Field. This was a meta call on the day, as SF can protect against Warpstorm & Flamers and I was expecting to run into Chaos. Often vs Chaos you end up choking R more than C, which also makes it easier to afford. As it happened, apart from splash, I didn't hit any Chaos at all. I also never had a situation where I missed Suffering however, so 2 shields either way.
3/ Not a change, per se, but after experimenting with a Solarite and 2 Syren in the last couple of weeks, I then decided to go back to 3 Syren for Worlds. She is simply that good (and Solarite is a tad expensive and doesn't really offer the same kind of synergy for this particular deck-shape).
The strength of the deck is its versatility imho. Unlike some other Kith builds, it can choke either cards or resources, and can itself run off a paucity of either (making it easier to enforce a single economy choke when the opponent also has strong command).
It can also play the short game when the long game is not favourable, sometimes abandoning the choke completely and just muscling planets through sheer force of Khymera backed up by Destructors, Reavers and a well-timed Klaivex/Terror. One of Kith's strengths is early game she can solo most things due to her pet, especially enemy warlords.
Superiority is also a boon here as it has several uses. Optimally it will both deny your opponent and aid you, however, often just doing one of the two is worthwhile - if it disables a warp storm or enables a Klaivex for example. It also tends to get you through your deck faster, and thus closer to key cards.
Play-wise, whilst occasionally it's worth sizing up the planets and going for a quick win, much of the time it's just working out how your opponent wants to win and stopping him repeatedly, until you've essentially won by default. You're not so much playing with your deck and to your game plan, as much as you're playing against his. Most of your choices revolve around 'what hurts him most' and most of your commitments revolve around how to stop him winning. Of course, if the choke sets in and you've got a huge board presence, you can just try and wrap the game before he finds a way back in, but late game wins when you've lost most planets are not uncommon.
Comebacks with this deck are also not uncommon. Against an Eldar or mirror match where you get outdrawn or out-commanded at the start, or against a Marine who bloodies you, doesn't necessarily mean the game is over at all, it just makes it more of a challenge. Again, just keep the game going with smart deploys and commitments so that he can't win, and there's a good chance you'll turn it around. Always be looking ahead i.e. If I can delay the win by going here and here, eventually it'll come down to this planet here. How can I delay the win and then get the jump on that key planet down the end before he spots it? If he goes all the way to 7 early, do I have an answer to that? At least I'll get several easier turns to try and find one. And so on.
Do not be afraid to concede a bunch of planets as necessary.
Klaivex and Terror are exceptionally good cards, but don't use them unless you are getting something very good out of it, otherwise you are wasting resources and won't have them available for when you really need. Terror in particular is a card I find I actually play surprisingly infrequently, but when I do it's to contribute heavily towards winning (or not losing) the game. Likewise sometimes holding back a Destructor for a turn when it's not actually needed yet will save you that key resource.
This build isn't for everyone and there are plenty of other builds out there that are Tier 1. Ragnar could easily have ended up taking the tournament. Despite the unfavourable match up, Even cut through a lot of Kith with his Eldorath before it went down. I played 2 friendlies against Jeremy's Cato before I left and we went 1-1. And I still think Old One Eye/Polluter is on the brink of greatness (though it's of course possible I'm wrong about that). So play what suits your style (but you know that already, you don't need me or anyone else to tell you).
Interestingly I ended up using Raid a significant amount of times for its effect during the tournament (and the week in general), again as a disabler or enabler of key cards, and even more weirdly the same goes for Pact of the Haemonculi, which I have previously categorised as "just a shield" but I now have at least a modicum of respect for it. It can reinforce the card choke, or if you're resource choking, and thus have spare resources yourself, but are low on cards, it can help you draw. It can also dispose of a Sslyth if your opponent has no cards and thus nothing better to do than steal it or if you're going to get AoEd by Cato later. It's still the weakest card in the deck, but not utterly useless, as I would have rated it a week ago.
Apologies for sketchy memory. This is probably going to be a pretty uninformative report. Anyone who played or saw a game and wants to flesh it out feel very free to do so.
Swiss
1 - Bye (No longer Super, sad-times)
2 - Cato (Win) - I opened pretty badly, it being the morning, and he got a lot of stuff out. There was a key planet fairly early on when my opponent made the right play by retreating based on me having about 15 odd cards in hand. As it happened, had he stayed he'd have butchered me, as not one of those was a shield. I came back into it, exploiting the fact that all his stuff was now stuck in the HQ train, and managed to win the game towards the mid/late planets.
3 - Ragnar - Won the command war, and I think I might actually have bloodied him.
4 - Cato, Josh (14th Seed) - Locked him out of cards early and took a quick win. He took it well, given how quickly the choke set in. We never saw his deck take off, which actually led to a nasty surprise in the round of 16.
5 - Kith, Dustin (1st Seed) - My first mirror and only loss. Dustin is a quality player, but he also drew into 3 discards (murderbirds/pact) in his opening hand. I had half my hand nuked before I got out the gate. I came back into it and, unlike some of the games that I actually ended up winning, I can't really see anything I could/would have done differently (apart from predict the future and mulligan an otherwise good hand on that basis). By the time the win planet had come around I had complete dominance of cards and resources and was ready to drop half a dozen units. Unfortunately he top-decked Syren and my units all came in tapped and got slaughtered. He deserved his 7-0 though, went through a lot of good players to get it, and was another good bloke.
6 - Rick, Kith (16th Seed) - Another tough mirror (semi-mirror as he was Chaos split and also running murderbirds). I lost ground early on and had to cede planets wherever I could afford to, whilst attempting a planet 7 win. We almost went to time, which would have killed me on countback, but to his credit, Rick sped up to make sure we finished out the game, which resulted in a Planet 7 win for me. A lot of folk assume Chaos split has an advantage over Eldar split, but I think that very much depends how each is built. It's actually pretty tough to get off an efficient warp storm when R and C are being squeezed and I find the surprise of Superiority can be more effective than the known quantity of Fanatics. Perhaps most importantly Destructors allow for the bullying of key 1st/2nd planets that Chaos tends to miss out on, whilst also providing a very cheap finisher on the final turn or two.
7 - Elliot, Nazdreg (15th Seed) - Locked him down command-wise and did the usual Kith thing. I was really pleased that didn't knock him out though - partly because I wanted Nazdreg in the Top 16, mostly because he was yet another quality opponent (I was lucky that everyone I played was a gentleman), and a little bit because I knew he was very capable of knocking out some other Kith players so I wouldn't have to play any more blinking mirror matches! Sure enough he took two other Kith out of the running before we met again.
Knockouts
Rond of 16 - Cato, Josh - First thing that happened Saturday morning was I found out what tricks Josh was packing. He had a promoted Maxos at planet 1 on turn 1, and, although I was off-initiative, I decided to go there. If he went elsewhere I would take 1. If he also went to 1, I'd possibly win, or potentially lose and have to retreat at some point (although I still had resources, shields and tricks), but even then it would mean he hadn't sniped any command I'd set up on the board, so I felt I'd still be just ahead. Turns out he runs Rally the Charge. Maxos swung at Kith for 10 and bloodied her (I even had my 3 shield card in hand!). Well, that certainly woke me up, and might have been a blessing in disguise in that sense. I wish I could remember the rest of that game, but all I know is that somehow I clawed my way back from there and pulled it out of the bag.
Quarter-final - Kith, a different Elliot - Real sportsman (they both were) and good banter. Another game where I started on the back foot. He got Palace turn 1 and I quickly gave up on trying to work around it, but instead decided to see if I could deny him almost as much as he denied me (just through hammers, as I didn't have Palace). That approach seemed to stop me getting snowballed until I could find some punchy units to push back. This allowed me to pull back in the mid-game with better hitters, even with Elliot's cheeky Caus Wroth after I finally got to draw some cards. There was a big battle which should have decided it, but I dubiously went for a Kith bloody instead of cleaning up his swarm first, so, although I still took the planet, I lost about twice as many units as I would have with more sensible play. I then ran into my den to finish it, though I might still have been okay even without that. We had a lot of fun reminding each other about our Destructors, and I enjoyed this game a lot (considering I hate the very thought of the mirror - though I was actually pretty lucky that all three mirrors ended up as genuine contests, rather than the lottery I feared they might descend into).
Semi-final - Nazdreg, Elliot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z89ft0MRSrc
Den & Palace & so many Masters was pretty harsh on Elliot, even if he did have Depots, good command and a solid draw. Once my command came up too, and with Nazdreg having to avoid getting killed by a Denned swarm, it was pretty rough for him. Not much he could have done, I suspect.
Final - Seth, Ragnar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBwHHSjRAf8&feature=youtu.be
I know there was a bit of talk about the Ragnar retreat move in this match, but he would have got bloodied had he stayed (I am very open to dropping a Klaivex without a target to achieve a bloody/planet win), which might or might not have been a better trade off for him, but it would have meant I had much more freedom on commitments towards a long game without having to simultaneously play the dodging game (which is part of what pushed me towards trying to close it out earlier), so I think I would have been fine with that too, and I imagine he retreated for the same reason, expecting the Klaivex to come in. I also still don't know if my crazy Kith sacrifice was really the best play, but it worked out in the end I guess. I certainly dropped the ball right at the start when I forgot letting the Masters die meant I lost the hammer, although, had I spotted that, I may still have made the same decision, hard to say.
Everyone I met was absolutely brilliant. And I'm glad that the community is strong even in light of recent events. I really didn't know what to expect before I came, but I couldn't have asked for better opponents in terms of how they were as people (and most were pretty handy at Conquest to boot!).
http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/wh40kconquest/warhammer-40-000-conquest-decks-section/_/warhammer-40-000-conquest-decks/de-choke-1st-place-uk-nationals-r85
http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/26080-uk-nationals-tournament-report/
The deck has undergone only a couple of very minor changes since then.
1/ No Doom. I didn't use it once in NATs, and not for a while before that either. I replaced it with a 3rd Superiority, but could just as easily have gone with a 2nd Foretell.
2/ I dropped 2 Suffering for 2 Shadow Field. This was a meta call on the day, as SF can protect against Warpstorm & Flamers and I was expecting to run into Chaos. Often vs Chaos you end up choking R more than C, which also makes it easier to afford. As it happened, apart from splash, I didn't hit any Chaos at all. I also never had a situation where I missed Suffering however, so 2 shields either way.
3/ Not a change, per se, but after experimenting with a Solarite and 2 Syren in the last couple of weeks, I then decided to go back to 3 Syren for Worlds. She is simply that good (and Solarite is a tad expensive and doesn't really offer the same kind of synergy for this particular deck-shape).
The strength of the deck is its versatility imho. Unlike some other Kith builds, it can choke either cards or resources, and can itself run off a paucity of either (making it easier to enforce a single economy choke when the opponent also has strong command).
It can also play the short game when the long game is not favourable, sometimes abandoning the choke completely and just muscling planets through sheer force of Khymera backed up by Destructors, Reavers and a well-timed Klaivex/Terror. One of Kith's strengths is early game she can solo most things due to her pet, especially enemy warlords.
Superiority is also a boon here as it has several uses. Optimally it will both deny your opponent and aid you, however, often just doing one of the two is worthwhile - if it disables a warp storm or enables a Klaivex for example. It also tends to get you through your deck faster, and thus closer to key cards.
Play-wise, whilst occasionally it's worth sizing up the planets and going for a quick win, much of the time it's just working out how your opponent wants to win and stopping him repeatedly, until you've essentially won by default. You're not so much playing with your deck and to your game plan, as much as you're playing against his. Most of your choices revolve around 'what hurts him most' and most of your commitments revolve around how to stop him winning. Of course, if the choke sets in and you've got a huge board presence, you can just try and wrap the game before he finds a way back in, but late game wins when you've lost most planets are not uncommon.
Comebacks with this deck are also not uncommon. Against an Eldar or mirror match where you get outdrawn or out-commanded at the start, or against a Marine who bloodies you, doesn't necessarily mean the game is over at all, it just makes it more of a challenge. Again, just keep the game going with smart deploys and commitments so that he can't win, and there's a good chance you'll turn it around. Always be looking ahead i.e. If I can delay the win by going here and here, eventually it'll come down to this planet here. How can I delay the win and then get the jump on that key planet down the end before he spots it? If he goes all the way to 7 early, do I have an answer to that? At least I'll get several easier turns to try and find one. And so on.
Do not be afraid to concede a bunch of planets as necessary.
Klaivex and Terror are exceptionally good cards, but don't use them unless you are getting something very good out of it, otherwise you are wasting resources and won't have them available for when you really need. Terror in particular is a card I find I actually play surprisingly infrequently, but when I do it's to contribute heavily towards winning (or not losing) the game. Likewise sometimes holding back a Destructor for a turn when it's not actually needed yet will save you that key resource.
This build isn't for everyone and there are plenty of other builds out there that are Tier 1. Ragnar could easily have ended up taking the tournament. Despite the unfavourable match up, Even cut through a lot of Kith with his Eldorath before it went down. I played 2 friendlies against Jeremy's Cato before I left and we went 1-1. And I still think Old One Eye/Polluter is on the brink of greatness (though it's of course possible I'm wrong about that). So play what suits your style (but you know that already, you don't need me or anyone else to tell you).
Interestingly I ended up using Raid a significant amount of times for its effect during the tournament (and the week in general), again as a disabler or enabler of key cards, and even more weirdly the same goes for Pact of the Haemonculi, which I have previously categorised as "just a shield" but I now have at least a modicum of respect for it. It can reinforce the card choke, or if you're resource choking, and thus have spare resources yourself, but are low on cards, it can help you draw. It can also dispose of a Sslyth if your opponent has no cards and thus nothing better to do than steal it or if you're going to get AoEd by Cato later. It's still the weakest card in the deck, but not utterly useless, as I would have rated it a week ago.
Apologies for sketchy memory. This is probably going to be a pretty uninformative report. Anyone who played or saw a game and wants to flesh it out feel very free to do so.
Swiss
1 - Bye (No longer Super, sad-times)
2 - Cato (Win) - I opened pretty badly, it being the morning, and he got a lot of stuff out. There was a key planet fairly early on when my opponent made the right play by retreating based on me having about 15 odd cards in hand. As it happened, had he stayed he'd have butchered me, as not one of those was a shield. I came back into it, exploiting the fact that all his stuff was now stuck in the HQ train, and managed to win the game towards the mid/late planets.
3 - Ragnar - Won the command war, and I think I might actually have bloodied him.
4 - Cato, Josh (14th Seed) - Locked him out of cards early and took a quick win. He took it well, given how quickly the choke set in. We never saw his deck take off, which actually led to a nasty surprise in the round of 16.
5 - Kith, Dustin (1st Seed) - My first mirror and only loss. Dustin is a quality player, but he also drew into 3 discards (murderbirds/pact) in his opening hand. I had half my hand nuked before I got out the gate. I came back into it and, unlike some of the games that I actually ended up winning, I can't really see anything I could/would have done differently (apart from predict the future and mulligan an otherwise good hand on that basis). By the time the win planet had come around I had complete dominance of cards and resources and was ready to drop half a dozen units. Unfortunately he top-decked Syren and my units all came in tapped and got slaughtered. He deserved his 7-0 though, went through a lot of good players to get it, and was another good bloke.
6 - Rick, Kith (16th Seed) - Another tough mirror (semi-mirror as he was Chaos split and also running murderbirds). I lost ground early on and had to cede planets wherever I could afford to, whilst attempting a planet 7 win. We almost went to time, which would have killed me on countback, but to his credit, Rick sped up to make sure we finished out the game, which resulted in a Planet 7 win for me. A lot of folk assume Chaos split has an advantage over Eldar split, but I think that very much depends how each is built. It's actually pretty tough to get off an efficient warp storm when R and C are being squeezed and I find the surprise of Superiority can be more effective than the known quantity of Fanatics. Perhaps most importantly Destructors allow for the bullying of key 1st/2nd planets that Chaos tends to miss out on, whilst also providing a very cheap finisher on the final turn or two.
7 - Elliot, Nazdreg (15th Seed) - Locked him down command-wise and did the usual Kith thing. I was really pleased that didn't knock him out though - partly because I wanted Nazdreg in the Top 16, mostly because he was yet another quality opponent (I was lucky that everyone I played was a gentleman), and a little bit because I knew he was very capable of knocking out some other Kith players so I wouldn't have to play any more blinking mirror matches! Sure enough he took two other Kith out of the running before we met again.
Knockouts
Rond of 16 - Cato, Josh - First thing that happened Saturday morning was I found out what tricks Josh was packing. He had a promoted Maxos at planet 1 on turn 1, and, although I was off-initiative, I decided to go there. If he went elsewhere I would take 1. If he also went to 1, I'd possibly win, or potentially lose and have to retreat at some point (although I still had resources, shields and tricks), but even then it would mean he hadn't sniped any command I'd set up on the board, so I felt I'd still be just ahead. Turns out he runs Rally the Charge. Maxos swung at Kith for 10 and bloodied her (I even had my 3 shield card in hand!). Well, that certainly woke me up, and might have been a blessing in disguise in that sense. I wish I could remember the rest of that game, but all I know is that somehow I clawed my way back from there and pulled it out of the bag.
Quarter-final - Kith, a different Elliot - Real sportsman (they both were) and good banter. Another game where I started on the back foot. He got Palace turn 1 and I quickly gave up on trying to work around it, but instead decided to see if I could deny him almost as much as he denied me (just through hammers, as I didn't have Palace). That approach seemed to stop me getting snowballed until I could find some punchy units to push back. This allowed me to pull back in the mid-game with better hitters, even with Elliot's cheeky Caus Wroth after I finally got to draw some cards. There was a big battle which should have decided it, but I dubiously went for a Kith bloody instead of cleaning up his swarm first, so, although I still took the planet, I lost about twice as many units as I would have with more sensible play. I then ran into my den to finish it, though I might still have been okay even without that. We had a lot of fun reminding each other about our Destructors, and I enjoyed this game a lot (considering I hate the very thought of the mirror - though I was actually pretty lucky that all three mirrors ended up as genuine contests, rather than the lottery I feared they might descend into).
Semi-final - Nazdreg, Elliot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z89ft0MRSrc
Den & Palace & so many Masters was pretty harsh on Elliot, even if he did have Depots, good command and a solid draw. Once my command came up too, and with Nazdreg having to avoid getting killed by a Denned swarm, it was pretty rough for him. Not much he could have done, I suspect.
Final - Seth, Ragnar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBwHHSjRAf8&feature=youtu.be
I know there was a bit of talk about the Ragnar retreat move in this match, but he would have got bloodied had he stayed (I am very open to dropping a Klaivex without a target to achieve a bloody/planet win), which might or might not have been a better trade off for him, but it would have meant I had much more freedom on commitments towards a long game without having to simultaneously play the dodging game (which is part of what pushed me towards trying to close it out earlier), so I think I would have been fine with that too, and I imagine he retreated for the same reason, expecting the Klaivex to come in. I also still don't know if my crazy Kith sacrifice was really the best play, but it worked out in the end I guess. I certainly dropped the ball right at the start when I forgot letting the Masters die meant I lost the hammer, although, had I spotted that, I may still have made the same decision, hard to say.
Everyone I met was absolutely brilliant. And I'm glad that the community is strong even in light of recent events. I really didn't know what to expect before I came, but I couldn't have asked for better opponents in terms of how they were as people (and most were pretty handy at Conquest to boot!).
Sample Hand: 
Total Shields: 0
Average Shields Per Event/Attachment: 0
Total Command: 0
Average Command Per Unit: 0
Average Shields Per Event/Attachment: 0
Total Command: 0
Average Command Per Unit: 0
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21 Comments
I made similar plays with klaivex vs Seth in the swiss resulting in a bloody Ragnar and he played around it when we met up again in the top 8, may have had some influence on his retreating.
Thank you as well for the kind words in the summary of our game, i was playing pretty aggressively and if the game went beyond that planet i'm pretty sure i would have lost to your command advantage at that point. Hope to see you next year
I always have avoided running 3x Syren and 3x Archon's Palace for fear of overdrawing/having too many in my opening hand. Did you find this to be a problem?
Seconded.
Cheers, it was pretty important in the final. I think I maybe used it in one other game for its effect and once to cancel something fairly irrelevant (i.e. as a cantrip). I think the fact that it also draws through your deck means it's always worth slots, it's just a question of whether there is enough space in the deck or not, and in the end I favoured Superiority over fitting in more of it, but I think both are good shouts.
In the end it's probably one of those 'it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it' things.
Syren is a bit tougher, and she also requires careful play (she's a pretty easy Warlord snipe target if unsupported, and can be worked around with various effects such as Maxos, Mobility). Again, however, her potential to lock out a key planet and gain you a command advantage is just too good to miss out on. If she gets you a card you wouldn't have otherwise got and that card turns out to be a duplicate of herself, so be it, she's still doing a fantastic job at locking that planet. Furthermore she tends to die (or you win) since she's at these important planets and your opponent wants to remove the lock. Then you stick one down at the next key planet. Sometimes I might even let her die if it's a 1st planet so I can get the lock at the next key planet without having a round of her stuck at HQ.
Part of the reasoning is that both cards give you command advantage anyway and thus make it more likely that you are outdrawing your opponent (though sometimes it is better to turn that advantage into out-resourcing your opponent and you may actually be behind in draw). If you are outdrawing your opponent then the odd dead card hurts a lot less as it's all relative.
Hope that helps a little regarding my thought process. Feel free to disagree with any/all of it.
Edit: another way of looking at it is which one you treat as the "spare". If you look at it as the 2nd/3rd you're thinking "I could have had something else". If you look at it as the 1st one being something else instead, then maybe you never got that early command advantage so you never drew the 2nd one anyway.
Could someone comment a bit on the reasoning behind why the Syren was dropped first turn on the 5th planet in the finals? Didn't seem like a standard move to me. Was it just for the command?
I think I had the Klaivex if snipe did occur (though round one I wouldn't have the resources) and I felt at this point Seth wouldn't want to go there. I figured by the late game going there would also mean the HQ train got stuck which would have been an acceptable trade off (though as it happened Plannum came out so that wouldn't have been so true) or it'd get reinforced by me by then. Did I also have the foretell at that point? If Ragnar soloed her she'd probably live too, which wouldn't have been so bad.
I also knew I was going to play the Khymermasters somewhere and that would also be a tempting place for Seth to go. So it was basically choose to double down with Syren & Masters, which would have been weaker command-wise, or accept that Seth would likely run at one of the two, with the masters at Atrox being the more likely choice.
One key strength of Foretell in Kith is cancelling Tarrus or Carnath->Tarrus as these are very popular targets for warlord commits when facing her. You can see Seth use it to get ahead in the quarterfinals against Dustin. Holding Foretell gives you a huge advantage in that you can ignore Tarrus/Carnath during commit and have your opponent blown out by the loss of three cards (or three resources) they would've gained otherwise.
Actually, if you calculate the lines, there are ways for Ragnar to survive the battle hale and do more damage before retreating. It would cost him his DPA and another shield though. Winning the battle became impossible by bloodying Kith. Had Seth not gone for the bloody and swung at the Destructor instead, he would be the victor, but Ragnar would take a lot of damage and only the Librarian would remain at the planet. His hand would also be depleted going into the next turn. I'd say that the Foretell was the correct line for you.
I'd consider it a blunder as you initially assess, but you were fortunate that Seth couldn't capitalise on it. Giving him fewer cards to work with would only make that battle (and future battles) more difficult to win and this sort of effect tends to snowball across multiple turns in Conquest.
I played against this deck in round 2 at worlds. Very well piloted and it was a great (and very close!) game. I wish I didn't know that you didn't have any shields on planet 3 though. Now that's going to haunt my dreams!
Sorry! The odds of that were super low, 95% of the time your decision would have been for the best.
Could you share your thinking about such things?
3x Palace, 3x Syren are the interesting ones, right? Got to admit I'm 3 and 2 on those 2, but I can definitely see the thinking.
Can you comment?
Edit - Actually, I see you commented on Syren already in your explanation. And I get 3 x Palace. I flirted with 2x for a while, but I've totally been won over to 3x.
I also hear players say that if a card is worth taking, they always take 3x unless they are running up against the 50-card limit.
I'm just interested in reading more thoughts about that from experienced players.
I think it comes down in part to the strength of a card compared to the alternatives, and also in how impactful it is on the overall strategy of the deck. Choke in particular is an archetype that works in an almost exponential way - the difference between your opponent getting 4 cards instead of 5 is small, the difference between your opponent getting 0 cards instead of 1 is much bigger.
Kith works best when all her pieces fit together doing a job and both Palace and Syren add so much value to everything else you do, when they are out, that I think it's worth the dead draw.
They are also cards that by their nature tend to reduce the opponent's options, so if you lose a single card (and therefore option) yourself, the advantage is still yours. On the other hand drawing something instead of a Syren could be the difference between an easy victory and an uphill battle.
A lot of the time when decks run 2x an army unit it is expensive ones where 3x might hurt the curve. There are also units that are nice to see 1-of, but seeing 2-3 doesn't add much more to the table. 2x is risky if it's a unit that does something nothing else in your deck does, however, because you might not get it when it really matters. It's that old adage of "better to have X and not need it than need X and not have it," extend that a step further - better to have 2X but only need 1, than to have none at all when the game depends on it.
Another consideration is opening hands - how much would I like to see this on turn one? How bad would it be if I saw 2 of this on turn one? In the case of both Palace and Syren I'm okay with 2 in my opening and I'm really happy to see 1. Later in the game if I'm drawing heavily (as Kith is wont to do at times) then I end up with a few cards I won't have the resources to play, a duplicate Syren/Palace is no worse than 1 of my units that I'm never realistically going to fork out the resources for.
Finally Syren can be played in an aggressive manner whereby your opponent pretty much has to kill her to stay in the game. At that point you play your 2nd/3rd one.
Hallo guys, I was wondering wether there are any new cards in the Planetfall Cycle to improve this deck?
I love playing Kith, however I am still noob when it comes to deciding which to choke first, cards or resources, especially when it comes to using Palace. Can you share your thoughts on it? Is it Warlord dependent?
Might be a good question to ask in the Packmaster Kith thread.
There are broadly 3 considerations.
1) Matchup - some Warlords feed off cards, others like their resources. Obviously even within warlords there are different builds, so sometimes you have to adapt or change your choke focus part way through the game. Some factions also have a way to mitigate one type of choke - for example it's generally easier to card choke Cato (though resource choke is still possible on rare occasions). If the opponent gets an early Ammo Depot, resource choke may be more effective (though again, not always).
2) Planet Flop - This is one people often miss. If 4 planets have cards on them, but only 2 have resources, and if the 0/2 resource planet is planet 1 (ie about to disappear after Turn 1) then Resource choke is probably the stronger option (also you'll be able to do more because you will inevitably pick up some cards from the abundance anyway, so if you don't win the R planets you'll actually end up the one being choked).
3) Your own hand - it is sometimes better suited to one choke than the other. It also sometimes needs R or C itself more in the early game, so might find it easier to choke the thing it also wants to be gaining.
Broadly speaking Card choke is still more effective if both options are equally viable, but in the modern environment that equality is much less common.