525 replies to this topic

[sparrowhawk]

Thank you for your feedback. And we are all amateurs here, even if some of us write confidently. (Have you seen The Wizard of Oz? It's all smoke and mirrors.) There is never any need to be retiscent with posts. Golden ideas germinate from everywhere.

It's my honest opinion that a well-placed superiority (not to mention more than 1) can be the decisive force in a game. I will very typically place a 1 command unit against a two command unit and just let them believe they are playing against an idiot. It sounds like a "1 for 1" scenario, but when you gain a planets resources while simultaneously costing them the planet they have now 1) lost the cost of the command-centric unit 2) lost the opportunity cost of the military unit they would have played otherwise, 3) lost the card the would have drawn, 4) and/or lost that last resource they needed to play (insert important event card here).It's undervalued in the meta and I guarantee it will climb in popularity as the game matures.

I agree that Superiority is a good card. Especially since anyone allying with Eldar will use Survivalists. So if your Survivalist at a 2 reward planet is capped by say an Incubus Warrior (which has an in-built deterrent against warlord sniping when it has initiative), you pay 2 rewards to deny 2 rewards to the opponent that he may be relying on for a battle but also gain 4 rewards yourself. So yeah, it's good.

The problem is what to cut. When playing Eldar, you have access to Gift of Isha and Coreworld Gate to compete. Now Gift of Isha is not just a combat trick. Sometimes, due to pinging, the top Eldar is a Guardian, blocking your combat trick option. In the same Incubus situation as above, you can Gift it at a cost of 3 rewards to deny 2 rewards and gain 5 rewards when you Gate the dead Guardian back to hand.

Superiority is a great choice for Eldar allies but for the Eldar themselves, thematically suiting their arrogant isolationist superiority, they have so many great Loyal cards that I find it hard to fit it in.

Of course Starbane alone does not need to fear the sniping deterrent of a lone Incubus Warrior as he eats them for breakfast without initiative. But if shielded, Gift of Isha is really for these skirmisher sniping battles, bringing in a Farseer (draw 1 card them Gate to hand before battle ends) to help finish off an exhausted beefier capping unit. Whilst a top discard Wraithguard and 2 resources saved is such a huge deterrent against the enemy warlord sniping your capped planets. By eschewing the First Planet Snowball strategy (whilst luring commitment via mobility, can't be blanked by Laboratory), you give yourself greater flexibility to snipe as you are not guiding exhausted HQ units, and if you chose wrongly, Foresight (which is best used to win 2 command struggles).

There is a lot of implicit strategy in the build above that I haven't covered. The planet that gives you 3 cards including a search top 3 for 1 is an ideal planet to concede feigning disinterest in deployment then snipe during commitment. The planet that gives 3 bonus rewards if you have less units is an ideal planet to fortress up because you want to deny the opponent this battle ability (as your economy will make you more numerous except against swarm, definitely after a Doom). As it says above, you have to alter the base strategy to suit the terrain and match-up as well as your draws and opponent's strategy. But I contend the base strategy of "give 'em enough rope to hang themselves", the devastating rug-pull that is the last opportunity reset of Pure Control, to come back from the precipice to win, most definitely applies with this build/strategy.

Of course, sometimes, you fly too close to the sun and plummet like Icarus. Whilst exhilarating to snatch victory from defeat, if you can devastate earlier to "gain control", then do it. The build is not necessarily about denying opponent's economy but improving your own and denying him a presence beyond Planet X-1 because once you Doom on turn X, with your entrenched forces (Nullify vs. Exterminatus/Warpstorn) and healthy economy, it's game over.

Well, that's the theory anyway. Now to test it out...

[HoopJones]

Sparrowhawk when are we gonna play on Ocgtn?

[MotoBuzzsawMF]

Thank you for your feedback. And we are all amateurs here, even if some of us write confidently. (Have you seen The Wizard of Oz? It's all smoke and mirrors.) There is never any need to be retiscent with posts. Golden ideas germinate from everywhere.


I agree that Superiority is a good card. Especially since anyone allying with Eldar will use Survivalists. So if your Survivalist at a 2 reward planet is capped by say an Incubus Warrior (which has an in-built deterrent against warlord sniping when it has initiative), you pay 2 rewards to deny 2 rewards to the opponent that he may be relying on for a battle but also gain 4 rewards yourself. So yeah, it's good.

The problem is what to cut. When playing Eldar, you have access to Gift of Isha and Coreworld Gate to compete. Now Gift of Isha is not just a combat trick. Sometimes, due to pinging, the top Eldar is a Guardian, blocking your combat trick option. In the same Incubus situation as above, you can Gift it at a cost of 3 rewards to deny 2 rewards and gain 5 rewards when you Gate the dead Guardian back to hand.

Superiority is a great choice for Eldar allies but for the Eldar themselves, thematically suiting their arrogant isolationist superiority, they have so many great Loyal cards that I find it hard to fit it in.

Of course Starbane alone does not need to fear the sniping deterrent of a lone Incubus Warrior as he eats them for breakfast without initiative. But if shielded, Gift of Isha is really for these skirmisher sniping battles, bringing in a Farseer (draw 1 card them Gate to hand before battle ends) to help finish off an exhausted beefier capping unit. Whilst a top discard Wraithguard and 2 resources saved is such a huge deterrent against the enemy warlord sniping your capped planets. By eschewing the First Planet Snowball strategy (whilst luring commitment via mobility, can't be blanked by Laboratory), you give yourself greater flexibility to snipe as you are not guiding exhausted HQ units, and if you chose wrongly, Foresight (which is best used to win 2 command struggles).

There is a lot of implicit strategy in the build above that I haven't covered. The planet that gives you 3 cards including a search top 3 for 1 is an ideal planet to concede feigning disinterest in deployment then snipe during commitment. The planet that gives 3 bonus rewards if you have less units is an ideal planet to fortress up because you want to deny the opponent this battle ability (as your economy will make you more numerous except against swarm, definitely after a Doom). As it says above, you have to alter the base strategy to suit the terrain and match-up as well as your draws and opponent's strategy. But I contend the base strategy of "give 'em enough rope to hang themselves", the devastating rug-pull that is the last opportunity reset of Pure Control, to come back from the precipice to win, most definitely applies with this build/strategy.

Of course, sometimes, you fly too close to the sun and plummet like Icarus. Whilst exhilarating to snatch victory from defeat, if you can devastate earlier to "gain control", then do it. The build is not necessarily about denying opponent's economy but improving your own and denying him a presence beyond Planet X-1 because once you Doom on turn X, with your entrenched forces (Nullify vs. Exterminatus/Warpstorn) and healthy economy, it's game over.

Well, that's the theory anyway. Now to test it out...

 

With the deck you posted, I fear you may not have enough fire power to contend with many decks. I know you are aiming for a pure control deck but you have 18 units between 0-1 attack values. You are able to exhaust the first combat round but that won't help you on combat round two. 

 

Maybe I am missing something but that is my two cents.

[sparrowhawk]

I think you misunderstand. It doesn't confront in a guileless battle. It lets you win a few planets whilst minimising your presence in planets beyond with warlord sniping then resets your force with Doom (which Farseers will secretly find). It doesn't go for First Planet (beyond pressuring on icons during struggle with Falcons & Mobility then moving down) until you Doom because that would be a waste of resources. It spreads its cheap economy generators so that if the warlord snipes that planet, you can Gate them back up to save the card, you're still up for the other 3 planets. Yes, it chooses 1 key planet to bastion up with ready combat forces (and survivalists) to slaughter any exhausted force committed there. But otherwise it avoids combat until it is ready because of the reset of a large section of your troops and a better economy.

It's the counter strategy to the current First Planet battles aggro obsession and even if opponent runs Exterminatus (many don't when possible), it has Nullify and better card draw to counter it.

Obviously I haven't sold you on this paradigm shift in winning by avoiding wasteful battles (btw, the Councils and Wrathguards hit quite hard if needed whilst Avengers take care of your worst or second worst threat depending on initiative). Maybe I'm talking bollox. Although the failing is on my part for a note-form strategy guide below the list as I felt the strategy was sorta self-evident.

Thanks for reading it and your feedback. You may well be right but I hope not.

[VonWibble]

I will very typically place a 1 command unit against a two command unit and just let them believe they are playing against an idiot.

Of course, after you do this once they expect it in future games.

Then the mind games begin. Mwa ha ha!!!

[Nate]

I'll be weighing in on this thread with my deck when I get chance to (work and RL stuff sucks), glad it had a thread though as eldar will be my faction off choice

[Asklepios]

I don't feel I'm strong enough a player to play the control game with Eldorath + DE allies, even though thats the first deck I built, I've had only losses with the deck so far and wins with other simpler to execute decks (like Tau + eldar allies, which can do the command capping thing AND take first planet AND carry a single Doom for unplanned emergencies rather than as a planned strategy).

 

One thing I'd note though is that as the meta evolves, this sort of control deck is going to get easier. We need some good control or draw effects that trigger on entering or leaving play, enough to make a Craftworld Gate deck work. We need more effects that bounce, more that exhaust, and so on.

 

The Survivalist, does indeed get sniped all the time, and I'm very much of the opinion that the best place for him is with your Warlord, as Eldorath snipes around, though its sometimes tricky to get them back to HQ at the right time and you'll end up having to send Eldorath back to them instead.

 

The Altansar Rangers fare better in this regard, as they can fight back with his first strike (sorry, I mean ranged) and they make a nice counterplay to a 1 command outlier, as even if they snipe in you can subsequently shoot their 1 command unit fairly reliably.

 

My Eldar / de playstyle at present has very much been geared around drawing as much commitment as possible into Planet 1 (ideally as cheaply as possible, though other factions are better at economical planet 1 presence). Meanwhile I do my best to dominate command on 2-5, likely having to give up planet 1 and one other. Vs Tau is especially tricky, as they tend to be able to compete the command struggle cheaply. The other problem is drawing sufficient force into planet 1, as a canny opponent won't commit more than they need. A nice trick I've found is to play just one cheap unit there and when the opponent goes with just one stronger one let it be, then Archon's Terror. Alternatively, if they go heavier, Doom.

 

The main problem with this playstyle isn't so much the lack of control tools, but rather overall efficiency and reliance on the right tool at the right time. Eldar really does need its Survivalists as it really needs its cards and resources to execute control. Cards > Resources in this circumstance, I think, as you can sacrifice a planet or two while you accumulate what you need, but you want to have enough cards in hand to make an opponent have to play as if you can play events at all time.

 

Re discard pile tricks, I note that the otherwise mediocre Warp Spiders are quite handy for self milling, giving a controlled discard and stacking effect, that ordinarily isn't a strong ability but helps set up stuff to come. Same is true of the Power Sword - you can use it to stack your discard and make a big elite unit Isha'able.

 

Overall though, I'm finding Eldar really really hard to play. I suspect that as the cardpool grows their playstyle will rise in prominence, but right now for sheer battlefield control the Space Marines have them beat, for command struggle and cool combos in play its the Tau. Once we get more variety of control effects we'll be able to tailor our toolbox to the meta and make it more consistent, as it is we're very much at the mercy of the winds of fortune.

[sparrowhawk]

I think you're spot on with your assessment, Asklepios. Eldar are tricky, higher up the learning curve.

Have you considered a more aggressive Tau alliance build? Trailblazers and rifles are often borrowed...

[Etaywah]

Eldar/DE is probably my second favorite faction right now to play. I'll post my deck later, but the general gist is

3x nullify,
3x archon terror,
3x doom,
2x superiority,
3x Iyanden Wraithguard,
3x survivalists,
3x biel tan,
3x gift of isha,
3x Silvered blades
3x Swordwind
3x Wildrider
1x Spiritseer Ethereal (not because I like it, it's because I run 3x Nullify and 1x No Mercy)

Skip the coreworld gate and focus on winning command.

I don't like coreworld gate because I find I typically have a huge hand anyways. I want to snuff their command struggles out with Foresight, superiority, better income/draw and just winning the war of attrition. Eldar have the tools to do this right now and it's effective. You only need to focus on killing one of their two resources at first, so kill either their draw or their income depending on which if theirs is weaker and more vulnerable depending on the planet layout and current hand/resources. If they spend all their money on the first turn - great, keep them below 5 resources for the whole game and you're golden.

When you do this (especially with card draw) they will naturally make decisions to compensate and recoup their losses, making mistakes like committing their warlord to planets for the income or draw, or planets with abilities that will help their problem. When this happens I will typically put a strong defender at the planet that will fix their issue the most, Starbane's Council is best for this, that way they know if they are going to commit a warlord to this crucial planet they are going to have to attack first, and then they're gonna get hit hard unless they kill my starbane's council - if they try anything tricky? Well that's why I have 3x nullify.

Here's why I like the Banshee Power Sword: Put a Iyanden Wraith-guard or a Starbane's Council in your discard pile on purpose, then rez him out with Isha after the warlord takes his swing - it hurts, just make sure their next attack cant kill anyone.

I like the deck because it's a bit costly, but no unit is over 4 cost. I really like Warlord sniping with the wraithguards and the combat mobility of the Wildrider Squadron opens up some versatility as well.

Last night I won against a solid Space Marines deck without capturing a single planet myself. I won on planet 4 and allowed him to keep winning planets because each of them didn't help his major problem - resources. He couldn't afford anything and had to commit his bloodied warlord to planet 1 because my armies were scattered everywhere else just waiting for him. I commit to planet 1 as well, exhausting his only fresh army unit, so he put in a drop pod and an eager recruit to bait me. He swings first, I shield the attack, gift of Isha'd in the wraithguard from discard and killed his warlord (already had 1 damage on him). Just in case he had an indomitable in hand, I had 2 nullifies to shut it down.

Game win, 0 planets captured. War of attrition: won .

[Asklepios]

Y'see I'd love to be able to play the Eldar like that. I'm just too panicky, and my opponent has any set of 2 icons I start trying to grab a planet even if it won't win for him. To play the way you've done there is just artful...

 

I presume you typo'd with the 4x Wildrider tho!

[Etaywah]

Yea just a typo .

 

This game ain't over til it's over, so even if he's got 2/2/1 but I'm on every other planet with 10 resources and 2 archon's terror in my hand, what good is it to him?

 

Also, trust me I wasn't just giving the planets away, but I had him completely shut down to just getting his start-of-turn resources and card draw. I was confident that even though he was an inch from the win I could still sweep every other planet, it just so happens he put himself in a situation where I could end it then.

[Lockjaw]

Hi I just tried out the deck builder for the first time (which is most excellent, thanks darkbane!) and thought I would post up the Eldar deck i have been using with good success. I've played around 20 games with this deck and have a 90%+ win rate. Admitedly that is rather inflated because there are a lot of new players but I think in general this deck holds up well and is quite strong.

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com  Warhammer 40,000: Conquest Deckbuilder


Total Cards: (50)

Warlord:
1x Eldorath Starbane (Core Set)


Army Unit: (33)
4x Starbane’s Council (Core Set) +
3x Biel-Tan Guardians (Core Set) +
3x Void Pirate (Core Set) +
3x Incubus Warrior  (Core Set) +
3x Coliseum Fighters (Core Set) +
3x Eldar Survivalist (Core Set) +
3x Baleful Mandrake (Core Set) +
3x Iyanden Wraithguard (Core Set) +
3x Swordwind Farseer (Core Set) +
3x Spiritseer Erathal (Core Set) +
2x Wildrider Squadron (Core Set) +

Attachment: (1)
1x Mobility (Core Set) +

Event: (13)
2x Foresight (Core Set) +
3x Nullify (Core Set) +
3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set) +
3x Gift of Isha (Core Set) +
2x Doom (Core Set) +

Support: (3)
1x Alaitoc Shrine (Core Set) +
1x Corsair Trading Port (Core Set) +
1x Craftworld Gate (Core Set) +
 

The deck is control focused at it's heart. Gaining a strong advantage through command and winning through sheer resource and card superiority is the most common win condition, but the deck also competes well in close games or when playing from behind. I won't go into detail of the reasoning behind every single card choice but here are a few general thoughts on the choices I've made:

 

Events have been limited to the absolute clutch events so that I can make best use of recursion through coliseum fighters. Hence no superiority and the like (also if i could drop foresight i would). Despite this it's still quite an event heavy deck and you need to calculate your resources appropriately to make use of these strong events.

 

Try and chip a couple HPs off enemy warlord early. You want to get them down to 4HP left asap to leave them vulnerable to gift of isha + wraithguard. In the same vein it's correct to play a wraithguard or starbanes council inefficiently if it will leave it at the top of your discard pile to bring back with gift. Throw the wraithguard at the first planet against the marksman with ion rifle then bring it back to swat the enemy warlord at p5 or the like.

 

I run 3x Spiritseer Erathal not because he's a particularly good card but because he is the only unique available at the moment and having an untapped unique is key for nulify. Can't always rely on the warlord being untapped. I try and play him to the least threatening / threatened planet and just let him quietly sit there with his two icons. A 1/0 tricon at p4 or p5 is a good candidate.

 

Try and hold your guardians / incubi for command sniping. When they play a single hammer dude counter it with your cheap 2 hammers. Leading with wraithguard / starbanes is ok (see above for gift combos).

 

Playing your survialists / void pirates to the first planet T1 is a solid strategy if you can protect them with shields / archons / warlord (losing the planet is ok, just keep them alive). Getting them back to HQ to deploy with your warlord in t2 is a strong play.

 

I prefer the windriders over dire avengers. I originally had avengers there but I find they're more of a 'win more' card rather than capable of turning a close fight. Occasionally dire avengers can give you an auto-win at a planet but those situations are few and far between. The wind riders are always useful.

 

Craftworld gate is primarily for saving your void pirates, survialists, etc. Also handy for getting coliseum fights back into hand for additional event recursion.

 

Hope someone finds this useful! I'm on octgn fairly regularly so if you're looking for a game let me know and we can tee something up.

[Asklepios]

Believe they're wild riders, not wind riders.

 

Incidentally, how do you use these guys? I'm presuming you can't use their combat action if they're not present in the battle, right? I've never quite figured how to use them, short of moving from a first planet battle to a second planet battle, or avoiding having to pass through HQ and exhausting from this, which seems quite a light advantage.

[PBrennan]

There's no inherent requirement for a unit to be at a planet where a battle is taking place in order to do its combat action, or even to be at a planet for that matter (it could be at HQ). There doesn't even need to be a battle happening, as there's an action window at the start of the combat phase (before any battles have started) where combat actions may be performed, as well as at the end. "Combat" here only defines what phase you must be in to allow the action to be initiated.

 

If a combat action is to be more restricted than that, it has to say it itself, usually by saying "play only during a battle" or by having a planet reference. For example Wildrider Squadron says "Move this unit to an adjacent planet." which means it can only be initiated while WS is at a planet, not while its at HQ (RRG Planet section).

 

Its most common uses are to escape a battle (because it can do its combat action even when exhausted), or to effectively ambush into a battle at the point it's needed.

[Etaywah]

 there's an action window at the start of the combat phase (before any battles have started) where combat actions may be performed,

 

Woah PB, if this is true then I think everyone so far (including myself) has been using combat actions improperly.

 

Wildrider Squadron is a great example: Can this guy only be moved at the very beginning and the very end of the combat phases of each planet?

[PBrennan]

There's no such thing as a combat phase at each planet - instead, it's that there is one combat phase per round. Within that combat phase there is:

- an action window,

- then each battle happens (which may have multiple combat rounds, each with multiple action windows), with an action window between each battle,

- then a final action window.

 

Wildrider Squadron can initiate in any action window throughout the whole combat phase ... as long as he's at a planet that has an adjacent planet.

[PBrennan]

We did ask around for a new name for "combat round" to try and circumvent confusion re combat phase / combat action, and also re round / combat round, which would have been nice. But none of the alternatives were as intuitive as "combat round" and none found favour, and eventually this nomenclature stuck. Therefore, one just needs to read the rules carefully in this space.

[Etaywah]

Gotcha, your post earlier sort of implied that this ability was similar to mobile except you could use it at the end of the combat round instead of just at the beginning. I'm glad to hear that because combat actions like wildrider are very cool and open up a lot of neat tricks for later development.

[PBrennan]

I think of WS as having uber-Mobile, being able to use it throughout the combat phase rather than just the beginning, and after you see what all the other Mobile's have done.

[Lockjaw]

I think of WS as having uber-Mobile, being able to use it throughout the combat phase rather than just the beginning, and after you see what all the other Mobile's have done.

 

Yea this is spot on. I think they're an excellent unit and I'm suprised I don't see more people running them.