11 replies to this topic

[GKZhukov]

So, I finally got my TGD box and now have pretty much 1 month to figure out either

 

a) How to beat Tyranids or

How to beat everything *as* Tyranids (including how to beat Tyranids with Tyranids)

    and also

c) How the other cards might affect existing decks

 

Since I know some of you have had the box since GenCon, and others are dastardly enough to use that thing called OCTGN, I expect there are several people here who already have some ideas that go beyond theory crafting. Any input would be appreciated!

 

So far I'm considering Kith, Swarmlord, Ragnar, Coteaz, and Old One Eye. Kith I have the most tournament experience with and a high win-rate. I've only played her about 5-10 times since NATs though, and Tyranids plus the new Chaos Unique will both have an impact on her (as might the Tau support). Ragnar I've only actually used about 5 times ever, but I've really enjoyed those games and he feels very strong to me. Coteaz I've played about as much as Kith, but not in tournaments. So far my only defeat with him has been when I taught my sister to play and gave her my Kith deck... I like the feel of both Swarmlord and Old One Eye, but having only got them out of the box two days ago, I'm unsure about their consistency or how they fare against most decks. My main problem is that I have a very small meta; although there are a couple of folk who, thankfully, are eager to get a lot of games in over the next month, I'm still not going to be exposed to a diverse set of play styles, skill levels and deck types.

 

Anyway, with this in mind, my thoughts so far on how TGD might change opposition decks or tactics.

I'll leave everything Tyranid until the end.

 

Eldar - same as always, but with access to (albeit expensive) AoE, this makes it a bit more troublesome for Kith, but otherwise business as usual. (Although Subdual can also disrupt both Kith and Coteaz a bit).

 

Chaos - Bloodhand mixes things up. Whilst he's asking to be Klaivexed, there's no guarantee of having a Klaivex and being able to afford to play it - not to mention it means not Klaivexing a Plague Beast, for example. Meanwhile Khymera just power him up and he can OHK Kith with ease. Ragnar has the easiest time against him I suspect. With Coteaz it's about the barrage as usual.

 

Space Marines - Barbrus, whilst flavourful, is a tad too matchup dependent. I'll likely stick one in my Ragnar deck, and will need to be aware of both this and Vengeance as combat tricks. However neither wrecks a deck-type.

 

DE - Whilst I like the Solarite I don't think I can fit it into my Kith, as 4 cost is steep when already running Klaivex and Syren at 3x. Will be annoying to face with Khymera, probably have to hold the Klaivex back or want the choke war so it doesn't even show up.

 

Orks - Not much to see here for the time being.

 

AM - Allegra is nice, but doesn't change the overall picture. I'll squeeze one in Coteaz somehow, but not too worried about facing her.

 

Tau - A nice helping hand for Shadowsun. Gun Drone recursion could pose a problem for Kith and Coteaz, but the usual solutions still apply. Extra hits from the Unique will also hurt them more than Ragnar.

 

Overall it seems there are a few more problems for Kith to deal with, but nothing gamebreakinig. Coteaz, as my dark horse choice, also has a few more problems. Neither of them gain as much as they lose, but the loss is hardly catastrophic. Ragnar seems to fair the best, as although Barbrus is nothing to write home about, he cares the least about what the other factions gained as he just does his standard "Indomitable" etc. in response.

 

 

And then there's 'Nids...

 

I haven't yet had a chance to play *against* them so again any anecdotes or experiences are most welcome. I suspect they will provide a new challenge for all deck types, but equally that most are equipped with suitable responses.

 

Kith gets out-swarmed by the Swarmlord, and Synapse makes him harder to choke. Still, she does have her usual command shenanigans and the ability to deliver her Swarm at a focal point. Hard to say who is favourite in this matchup, I suspect it'll be one of her harder ones though.

 

Coteaz has a similar problem, possibly worse. Swarm lord himself is squishy though.

 

Ragnar is Ragnar. Do Space Marines care about anything?

 

Main thing that has surprised me so far is that Swarmlord has felt reasonable at Command/economy which means none of these decks can rely on that as a way of beating him down. How have others fared with his command/economy?

 

In terms of playing *as* 'Nids.

 

I like the feel of both Warlords so far.

 

Swarm lord feels very strong, but also complex and full of options. My first game I messed up spectacularly, but in my next couple of games I spammed out an early horde. Can this be done reliably though? His Command feels stronger than I anticipated, but is it reliable/consistent? The Synapse unity is great, but with limited draw/res options, I wonder how consistent will his game be? And of course certain factions are adept at swarm-sweeping.

 

I decided to try an Elite heavy infestation deck with Old One Eye and it was a lot of fun. Not sure it would fare well against certain deck types on the big stage though. Feels clunky if you don't have the right planet abilities (for your Savage Warrior Prime to trigger) or a resource heavy board to play with. Was pleasantly surprised how many Elites I could get out when it clicked though.

 

 

Anyway, for those of you who have either been playing with TGD for a bit, or have started getting your first plays in, what are your thoughts on how this will affect the tournament scene?

[HoopJones]

Just wildly speculating here, but I think Old One Eye feels like Kugath a lot on paper - when he works, he can really work, and when he doesn't...

 

I don't think the T1 decks are going to move much...SM/Eldar/DE are probably still going to stay where they are....but

 

*I really hate the Autarch unit and don't think it performs well due to the extreme cost to get it to "turn on" and Swarmlord seems ridiculously strong vs. Eldorath

*Solarite is a good 1x, it's just hard to fit with the limited space Kith has.

*Have not played against or with Barbrus and currently am not interested in even trying.

 

Zarathur has always been my "hey maybe he'll be t1" warlord but I'm really up in the air about his deck choices as of late.

 

*Do you squeeze in a ton of shields? If so, do you feel safe running a lower unit count ? I personally don't.

*Really on the fence with Heretek Inventors

*Ork Kannon seems extremely effective vs. nids. Furthermore, Zara poops his pants when he is caught against Savage Warrior Prime early on.

*Kingsley suggested taking out Rotten PBs and to try Wroth, I am not sure if I like these calls or not.

*Roghrax is a great unit, but is in a tough cost curve with existing plaguebeast...

*One of the weirdest problems I have is I feel like Infernal Gateway is mostly a crap card in my hand due to Snakebite Thugs and "average" units clogging up my hand. I wish Chaos had a "Warlock Destructor" esque unit

[Smith629]

Don't expect to ever use The Den against nids. They are, for sure, holding onto a clogged with corpses until you play it.

[VonWibble]

On Tau, I think Shadowsun has lost a lot purely by the existence of Ecstatic Seizures. Seizures is a card I am always going to put a cheeky copy or 2 of in any deck that can take it, purely because it has a decent target in almost every matchup (maybe not Baharroth).

Eldar got better vs Kith for sure, and have more ease of use for Nullify, but at a cost of Swarmlord coming in, a warlord Eldar are going to find tough.

Orks gained Zugnog, and he is good. Being able to compete more in command at later planets and still have the option on planet 1 is big for sure, and with Nazdreg around the damage can be advantageous (just watch out for Klaivex). They are also quite happy in out and out hitty fights (OOE) and have options vs swarm, so Tyranids aren't a terrible matchup for them.

[pj1]

Just a few quick comments:

 

- Kith is in a long, slow decline for some time now, and TGD is only making this worse. He's not very good against Nids, and other factions got more support and will pack more AOE. Archon Terror is getting worse as well because many decks will be playing a lot more uniques.

- Eldar got some help, they are kings of command and super strong in planet 1 bullying. The only weakness is against swarm. I'm going to test and include 2-3x Kabalite Strike Force and 2x Autarch Celachia for this.

- SM is solid as always against anybody, but not particularly advantaged.

- Both Tyranid warlords are really good. I would recommend playing Savage Warrior Prime in both (together with 3x Fall Back), as he seems to be at least one level above all the other Synapses. He's actually also very strong in command (in long run) - having 2 command cappers cleared on 2 planets per turn is devastating (not mentioning 2 planet ability triggers).

[VonWibble]

Agree on Savage Warrior Prime, he's hard not to take as the synapse.

[HoopJones]

Agree on Savage Warrior Prime, he's hard not to take as the synapse.

 

I think the biggest kicker is being able to trigger a second planet ability (or counter your opponents trigger) which can lead to very strong plays.

[Ultramarine]

I think the biggest kicker is being able to trigger a second planet ability (or counter your opponents trigger) which can lead to very strong plays.

 

I think it's for this reason alone that I may eventually switch both of my Nids decks to SWP as Synapse. Right now my OOE deck is still using Blazing Zoanthrope to maximize the infestation theme.  The ability to activate 2 planets abilities at any given turn may be the key to Nids' power.  

[SyntaxLost]

Though you already had experience with this at the UK Nats, Cacophonic Choir is amazing vs. Kith and Swarmlord and I wish I went with my testing and included it at AusNats. Zarathur is worth considering even with his weak matchups since he has unparalleled crowd control (and DE mirror is dumb).

[FedericoFasullo]

running [...] Syren at 3x.

Y do you run 3x Syren? See you already found a place for the solarite but you don't know it. A single copy will be a staple in many decks and it's one of the bestest cards to counter nids.

[GKZhukov]

So far I think SWP is the best for OOE even in a heavy infestation theme. Most of the planet triggers are super useful for him, especially if you go down an elite heavy route. The ability to off capping units also strengthens board position quite a lot and he can soften up planets ahead of the big battle which is handy given OOE is vulnerable to being bloodied if too much stuff is out. Essentially both SWP and OOE benefit from a shrunken board and SWP is the ultimate board Shrinker. I'm actually liking OOE more than I expected to, though I suspect certain factions will make a mockery of his elites and command. He also lacks any real control cards.

Swarm Lord on the other hand has crazy swarm potential and a couple of control or pseudo-control options, as well as being able to detonate supports or get out ranged tokens. He seems to be a bit of a brain burner though, which could be a disadvantage over a long tournament. I think I might leave him for another time, although he is a lot of fun, and generally I like finesse over brute force.

@federico - I have thought about dropping 1 Syren for Solarite, and will likely test that, but I suspect in most games I'd rather double draw Syren than draw 1 Solarite. Yes, Solarite has great utility vs Nids etc. My deck is built quite heavily around control, and Syren is absolutely golden in that context. She does require careful use - she can be sniped relatively easily, but she wins games by herself. What have your experiences been with Solarite so far? I would be interested in hearing about her from any who have used her. She does look great as an early game drop in particular.

On the Ragnar side of things, have people got much mileage out of Vengeance or not worth dropping all the other amazing SM events? (I'm not even using DPA in my current deck!) Likewise is Barbrus worth running 1X? I currently use 1 each of Land Raider, Maxos, Predator, so he could replace one of those.

[JDK002]

In my (admittedly limited) experience with Tyranids and Ragnar, savage warrior prime can make things difficult for him. SWP can make it very difficult to predict where their warlord is going to go.

Last night my friend had warcamp and frostfang out and could not land a single swing on Old One Eye due to the shell games I was playing. Letting SWP take on the big fights, knowing I can let him die and use fallback.

The times OOE did get into a big battle, I anyways ran him home after the first round, sometimes even running him first thing. His sig units and regeneration make it easy to recover from the loss of the attack action.