48 replies to this topic

[JoeFromCincinnati]

So the Night's Watch Fealty discussion thread really didn't kick off, and I think I know why. 

 

Night's Watch Fealty is currently incomplete.

 

That said, I found a deck type that attempts to cover up some of the flaws of Fealty with a pretty strong banner.

 

Night's Watch Banner of the Wolf allows me to bring in a 7 cost character who is reliably good in defense, rather than situationally as with Old Bear, as well as some cheap military icons with Tumblestone Knights and Arya. Finally, it brings in a consistent power source in Sansa and an event cancelling character in Bran.

 

Not only does this further decrease the gold curve of the deck, but it gives it reliable defense that helps cover up NW's weaknesses of relying on the Wall for their sole source of power.

 

Recently, Szczudel posted a picture of an OCTGN game where he had Sansa, the Wall and the Iron Throne and his power at 15. And that inspired me to build this deck. Other than those 3 cards, I don't know exactly how he built his, but I imagine it is relatively similar.

 

http://www.cardgamed...-and-stark-r165

 

Here is my deck. It is 61 cards, which is a sin, but I just couldn't bring myself to cut anything else. There are still cards I wish I could fit in, like Little Bird for Arya and Eddard, Superior Claim for more power and a third Castle Black.

 

By the time I'm done perfecting and tweaking this deck, some or all of those cards may be back in the deck, because they all add a distinct advantage to the deck that I really value.

 

 

The ultimate goal of the deck is to get Sansa, The Wall, The Iron Throne and a few other bodies for defending challenges. Then, if possible, win initiative with Marched to the Wall, Sneak Attack and Calling the Banners, going second and having either a Ranging Party, Jon Snow or Waymar with Longclaw standing for one retaliation attack per turn.

 

This combo can get up to 6 power in one turn, even without a superior claim. If I can find some way to fit a superior claim in, it could be up to 8 power in one turn.

 

At its core, it is a consistently rising power deck that is, ideally, difficult to slow down unless you can get unopposed challenges through, PttS Sansa or Put The Wall to the Torch.

 

It isn't perfect, as there are still a lot of monocons in the deck, 24 if you count Arya, but that number should decrease as more characters come out.  Will is coming out in less than a month now, and he will give them a much needed Military/Intrigue bicon that can't be bypassed with Stealth (as he has it) as well as even more card draw.

 

Let me know what you think of the deck. I think it has a lot of potential and its win condition is relatively focused, at least this early in the cycle.

 

 

 

[agktmte]

How reliant on the combo is this deck? If you don't draw any of those pieces can you still win?

[JoeFromCincinnati]

How reliant on the combo is this deck? If you don't draw any of those pieces can you still win?

 

I've played it a total of 5 times, so it is still unproven, but I can say one of those wins was against a Targaryen Lannister deck.

 

He got Drogo, Jaime and Plaza of Punishment out by turn 2.

 

I got Sansa out, but only got 1 power from her before he plaza'd her.

 

I didn't get the Wall, but I did get Castle Black. My set up was a Ranging party with Longclaw and 2 chuds.

 

I never got the wall or the Iron Throne and still won. I got 2 Ranging Parties and Waymar out and was able to keep his character count down while also repelling his attacks using Castle Black and renowning my Ranging Party.

 

I ended up winning with 5 renown on my Ranging Party. He had to use his confiscation to unmilk his drogo, so he couldn't get rid of my sword.

 

Since I didn't have the Wall, I wasn't worried about opposing all challenges.

 

I eventually got Jon Snow out and that's when I buried the game.

 

I won 3 of my 5 games, and each win was slightly different.

 

I have not yet had the combo come to complete fruition, but I haven't really needed it to yet. Just having one piece seems to be enough to win most games.

 

One was a true Wall win. Just enough guys to oppose and getting 2 to 3 power per turn. Maester Aemon clinched that game because he couldn't really clear away my weaklings, who were great at opposing. I haven't needed Iron Throne to win yet, so if it continues winning, I may be able to take it out and re-up Castle black to 3.

 

Then I won with the above strategy of renowning with Long Claw and holding out on military and giving away intrigue and power challenges.

 

Then I won another with Sansa and 1 unopposed retaliation attack per turn. I got the Wall on the last turn, so during that last turn, I used Sneak attack, went second. I had two veteran builders, so I gave one Long Claw, and then didn't defend any challenges. I pushed through a big power win for 2 power, sacrificed the builder for 2 more power and then won dominance. With Sansa, it was a 6 power turn. If I can fit Superior Claim into this deck, I'd love to have more games like that.

 

I thought the deck would struggle versus ultra aggro decks like Stark and Targ, but in 4 of those 5 games, I played an aggro deck and I was able to repel them relatively well. And, since they were always going first, I was able to play 2nd even without winning initiative. That really helped.

[agktmte]

Seems like the iron throne may not be that important. What if you cut that to try Superior Claim?

[JoeFromCincinnati]

Seems like the iron throne may not be that important. What if you cut that to try Superior Claim?

 

I am between those two, yea.

 

I want to play test it with both in the next week or so. All I know for sure is that I am really excited about this deck

[szczudel]

This kind of deck is strong against AGGRO as long as it does not have it's weenies cut effortlessly - Greywind, Plaza. Early Wall placement can almost fix that situation.

Real problem is Stealth (especially on INT - that is the reason it is not that easy to play against Lannisters even though they have only one stealth char ) and kneel.

 

Throne is not important in that particular deck but it is there not only to score for dominance. Main reason for throne are:

-Stopping Painted Table 

-Stopping Damphair 

-Scoring for FFC (if you have it)

-Reserve +1 (especially important when playing Ravens and or - high gold plots with low Reserve)

This is a lot for a 2G location. 

 

From what I read some of your wins were based on Jon. I personally stopped including him because he is just too expensive for a mono Icon. I know he is a boost in STR but this is not needed in this deck. What this Deck type needs is stealth INT Bi-icon (Bi Icons with INT in general), because defence is it's biggest flaw.

 

Answering first question. If you do not draw, Roseroads, Ravens, Wall,  Throne and Sansa you are basically f*%ked up. But every deck can be if they do not draw key 5 elements. One stealth char can change the whole game, same for Melisandre. You cannot say the same about NW, one (let's say out of 5 ) missing card on table is not a problem, but 3 missing is.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

From what I read some of your wins were based on Jon. I personally stopped including him because he is just too expensive for a mono Icon. I know he is a boost in STR but this is not needed in this deck. What this Deck type needs is stealth INT Bi-icon (Bi Icons with INT in general), because defence is it's biggest flaw.

 

Which they're getting in less than a month :DDDD

[szczudel]

What I like about Will is the excitment it will bring to defensive gameplay. Keeping him on the board - un-duplicated will be a challange itself. Especially against GJ and BARA. But the reward will be wort it Stealth, Insight - he will be stinging like a hornet. 

 

Reinforcment will became usefull plot, even more if we get some plot in game rotation. I would gladly use only 5/6 plots. Then I could rotate my plot deck sooner. Even Game of Thrones would winally would be a thing. Will + wall + Castle Black is 6STR. And keep in mind NW pump is comming 

[JoeFromCincinnati]

What I like about Will is the excitment it will bring to defensive gameplay. Keeping him on the board - un-duplicated will be a challange itself. Especially against GJ and BARA. But the reward will be wort it Stealth, Insight - he will be stinging like a hornet. 

 

Reinforcment will became usefull plot, even more if we get some plot in game rotation. I would gladly use only 5/6 plots. Then I could rotate my plot deck sooner. Even Game of Thrones would winally would be a thing. Will + wall + Castle Black is 6STR. And keep in mind NW pump is comming 

 

Yea, I really look forward to Will coming around. 

 

He will make Reinforcements a strong consideration, just in case you do end up losing an unopposed challenge due to some inopportune kneeling or stealthing of military/power. The good news is I think a dupe can save versus a sacrifice. I'm not 100% sure. But being able to bring back characters from the discard pile may be a good idea once Will is in your deck.

 

But he'll make the deck run really well, as an impact INT is the biggest thing it is missing right now. Yes, Sam can defend on intrigue, but you really want to keep him standing so he can get an unopposed or weakly opposed INT challenge off and get that insight.

 

What NW Pump is coming?

 

 

This kind of deck is strong against AGGRO as long as it does not have it's weenies cut effortlessly - Greywind, Plaza. Early Wall placement can almost fix that situation.

Real problem is Stealth (especially on INT - that is the reason it is not that easy to play against Lannisters even though they have only one stealth char ) and kneel.

 

Throne is not important in that particular deck but it is there not only to score for dominance. Main reason for throne are:

-Stopping Painted Table 

-Stopping Damphair 

-Scoring for FFC (if you have it)

-Reserve +1 (especially important when playing Ravens and or - high gold plots with low Reserve)

This is a lot for a 2G location. 

 

From what I read some of your wins were based on Jon. I personally stopped including him because he is just too expensive for a mono Icon. I know he is a boost in STR but this is not needed in this deck. What this Deck type needs is stealth INT Bi-icon (Bi Icons with INT in general), because defence is it's biggest flaw.

 

Answering first question. If you do not draw, Roseroads, Ravens, Wall,  Throne and Sansa you are basically f*%ked up. But every deck can be if they do not draw key 5 elements. One stealth char can change the whole game, same for Melisandre. You cannot say the same about NW, one (let's say out of 5 ) missing card on table is not a problem, but 3 missing is.

 

Yea, Plaza of Punishment does hurt, but the wall limits the effectiveness of it pretty well. 

 

And Iron Throne is tough to cut for these reasons you mentioned. Superior Claim is valuable, but I don't know if it is more valuable than Iron Throne. I'll have to find out in playtesting.

 

I'm not yet sure what to do about kneel. I think I'm going to put in a fortified position just to turn off Mel and Stannis for a turn, but that doesn't stop filthy accusations, a plot that can really mess up NW this early in the set.

 

I'm looking forward to Alliser coming out in the new year, because he will remedy a lot of the problems in the deck. He'll be difficult to stomach coming out during marshalling, because of his 6 gold cost, but coming in for 4 gold and kneeling your faction card is a nice little discount for a guy who will make all your night's watch characters, even messenger ravens, capable of opposing military challenges on defense. Another ironic synergy with him and Jon makes Jon actually halfway decent on defense.

 

Not many wins were based on Jon. He was more just icing on an already won game. But it was sure nice having him. Up until that game, every time I drew him, I kind of sighed. So he's still on the top of my cut list if I feel I need to add anything, but in the mean time, he is great for getting Sam's insight through and retaliating with just a hand full of characters standing.

[szczudel]

First quote response:

1. Sacrafice cannot be saved. Especially when it is Forced. If they wanted it saveable it would state discard.

2. Pump = STR pump. This builder from 4th CP also sword from 3rd CP most likely would give STR - since it is ambush I cannot see it any other way.

 

Yesterday I felt the hard way that When you plan using Fortified position - DO NOT put RAVEN

 

I would say that Thonre makes Jon quite decent. Longclaw and Castle black make you best friends with Jon even in defence. My only doubt about Thorne is that opponent seeing you having 4G in challanges phase will always go for INT first. Probably I will be always waiting for his"pseudo-ambush" to happen when I have dupe in hand too.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

First quote response:

1. Sacrafice cannot be saved. Especially when it is Forced. If they wanted it saveable it would state discard.

2. Pump = STR pump. This builder from 4th CP also sword from 3rd CP most likely would give STR - since it is ambush I cannot see it any other way.

 

Yesterday I felt the hard way that When you plan using Fortified position - DO NOT put RAVEN

 

I would say that Thonre makes Jon quite decent. Longclaw and Castle black make you best friends with Jon even in defence. My only doubt about Thorne is that opponent seeing you having 4G in challanges phase will always go for INT first. Probably I will be always waiting for his"pseudo-ambush" to happen when I have dupe in hand too.

 

Yea, the 4G is a little bit of a tell, but their best course of action would be to just not declare a military attack, which would be an okay trade off for me. Maybe having him the deck will make Take the Black a decent card because, if they decide not to military attack you, you can salvage some of that gold and take their army or knight or even reducer. Better than nothing. 

 

Although the opportunity cost there wouldn't be ideal, wasting 4 gold would hurt as well.

[szczudel]

Fine play with that lurking Take the black

+1

[ingsve]

How has this NW deck done against Varys? I would guess that he could mess things up a bit at least.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

How has this NW deck done against Varys? I would guess that he could mess things up a bit at least.

 

No one in my playgroup plays those fancy NA decks, so I'm not sure.

 

Theoretically, yes, it would probably really mess the deck up. A good amount of nonuniques  and 2x uniques makes for a typical board with very few dupes.

 

But this deck could probably rebuild more easily than most decks, considering its solid card draw and low gold curve.

[ingsve]

No one in my playgroup plays those fancy NA decks, so I'm not sure.

 

Theoretically, yes, it would probably really mess the deck up. A good amount of nonuniques  and 2x uniques makes for a typical board with very few dupes.

 

But this deck could probably rebuild more easily than most decks, considering its solid card draw and low gold curve.

I suspect that a lot of good players will try to sneak Varys into most decks, not just NA. Banner decks can easily run him as well since there is no neutral cap.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

So, after some thorough testing, I've decided to slightly update my deck list for this combo.

 

I've played Stark Fealty 14 times. I went 11-3.

I've played Stark/Night's Watch 4 times. I went 3-1.

I've played Tyrell Fealty once and lost (0-1).

I've played Lannister NA/Fealty 3 times. I went 1-2 (but learned a LOT in those 2 losses, each of which he barely reached 15 on the last turn. If he hadn't, I would have won both.)

I've played Targaryen NA/Fealty 3 times. I went 3-0.

I've played Targaryen/Lannister twice. I went 2-0.

I've played Greyjoy Fealty 3 times. I went 2-1.

I've played Baratheon Fealty 2 times. I went 0-1.

 

Total record over the last two weeks: 22-9.

I went a combined 8-4 against reportedly tier 1 decks, the last 5 listed.

 

Now, obviously, the Stark fealty deck kind of skewed the stats, as I totally wrecked that deck. But I am confident that those numbers reflect how well the deck does against early aggro decks.

 

Here is my updated deck list, with explanations on the changes I made and why in the summary section:

 

http://www.cardgamed...-and-stark-r165

 

I'm really excited about this deck. I was expecting Will and The Watch has Need to really change the deck a bit, and maybe even make Fealty worth it, but after playing about 5 games with 2x Will and 1x The Watch has Need, I took all 3 out in favor of what I was running at the time. Will is very nice, but losing 4 gold because of some janky **** that your opponent can pull off just doesn't feel great and makes you feel like you got ripped off. I may add 1x back in once the chapter pack comes out, but I'm not super thrilled about the idea. The Watch has Need, I always wished it was another, more useful, card. It works great in theory, but I just didn't feel it was necessary at this time. I may add a 1x back in at some point as well. If it allowed one of the characters to go directly into play, I'd run it. But only getting it into hand feels a little lackluster.

 

I'm going to continue to test it versus top tier decks, as I think I've established it is easily a tier 2 deck in my local meta. I'm not optimistic about the Baratheon match up. And Greyjoy still makes me nervous, as you need Benjen out to win that match up. so I may eventually need to revert to a NW/Bara deck at the end of the day, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. 

[szczudel]

Looking at all faction cards that are spoiled every second week from 1st CP Will does not look so good anymore

 

When he works - he works. I'd rather he had his forced reaction even at the cost of Insight.

I do not know if this is OCTGN's fault but my 5 cancel cards just does not show up (2xHJ + 3xBran). So basically every Dracarys or Kraken Grasp is hurting me a lot lately. I think That Will be a solid x1 for whole rotation period.

 

I have not used him yet - this is based on thoughts only.

 

BTW - Your deck is moving towards Swarm instead precise defence. Is this intentional?

Do you not suffer from lack of INT icons? Little Birds might help you.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

Looking at all faction cards that are spoiled every second week from 1st CP Will does not look so good anymore

 

When he works - he works. I'd rather he had his forced reaction even at the cost of Insight.

I do not know if this is OCTGN's fault but my 5 cancel cards just does not show up (2xHJ + 3xBran). So basically every Dracarys or Kraken Grasp is hurting me a lot lately. I think That Will be a solid x1 for whole rotation period.

 

I have not used him yet - this is based on thoughts only.

 

I think 1x is the best spot for him. He could be a 2x. I wouldn't have any issue with him at 2x.

 

But what I learned is that you hold him back until you're confident that you can oppose every challenge. You don't want him in set up or even in your first 2 turns. But once you have the Wall out, a Ranging Party or two and an intrigue icon or two, he will be very valuable.

 

His value can also not be understated versus Greyjoy, which is another reason to definitely include 1x of him.

 

I'd only played him in 5 games, where he was 2x. Didn't see him in 2, set him up in the third (and regretted it),  had him TTIDFL back into my hand and intrigued away in the 4th. Then in the 5th, I got him out, kept him out and won the game. So not a huge sample size.

 

But it hurt really bad during that game I set him up, because he went down the next turn to an unopposed intrigue after he was filthy accusations'd.

[VonWibble]

I've played Baratheon Fealty 2 times. I went 0-1.

That's quite an achievement.

[JoeFromCincinnati]

That's quite an achievement.

0-2* haha