12 replies to this topic

[mplain]

 

If I win the third challenge by 20+ STR, can I play Frey Hospitality if my opponent controls 2 or fewer characters? Can I target my own characters? Does the "instead" part replace [kill a character controlled by the losing opponent] with [kill 3 characters]?

[Ignithas]

This card is worded so poorly.

[wordsmith]

The replacement effect refers to the original effect of "choosing a character controlled by opponent" so it is logical to assume that these 3 characters have to be under opponent's control (see Lady Sansa's Rose has similar wording). Also replacement effect would not initiate if there are not enough valid targets, RR on Targets:

If an ability requires the choosing of a target (or targets), and there is no valid target (or not enough valid targets), then the ability cannot be initiated. This initiation check is made at the same time the ability’s play restrictions are checked.

[mplain]

Lady Sansa's Rose does not have a similar wording, because it does not repeat the predicate of the main sentence. The fact that Frey Hospitality repeats "Choose and kill" can be interpreted as the "instead" effect replacing the entire main effect, not a single part of it (as is the case with all other similar abilities that do not repeat the predicate).

 

Whether only the "instead" effect is prevented from resolving, or the entire ability is unable to initiate, is the big question here. I am not convinced that the effect is parethesis is actually a true replacement effect, even though it uses the word "instead". The RRG definition of Replacement Effects says that these effects "replace the resolution of a triggering condition with a different means of resolving that same triggering condition". But what is the triggering condition that this "instead" effect replaces? "Choose and kill a character" does not "indicate the timing point at which the ability may be used", and thus it does not seem to conform to the RRG definition of Triggering Condition.

[istaril]

I read it as any 3 characters. Had it only said (3 characters instead) it would be modifying only the character count - but with (choose and kill) it modifies the choice as well. And in Melee, that makes it a very interesting bloodbath, if you can pull it off right. 

[mplain]

I read it as any 3 characters. Had it only said (3 characters instead) it would be modifying only the character count - but with (choose and kill) it modifies the choice as well. And in Melee, that makes it a very interesting bloodbath, if you can pull it off right. 

 

Still, am I able to play the event at all if there fewer than 3 legal targets for it? Would only the "instead" part be prevented from resolving, or would the whole ability be unable to initiate?

 

I asked Daniel, could you please remove the "Best Answer" marker until we get his word?

[mplain]

Best Answer

Hello,
 
1. If you win by 20 or more STR, your opponent must have at least 3 characters in order for you to play the event. The parenthetical is not optional, so you must choose 3 targets if you won by 20 or more STR, and if the opponent does not have sufficient targets the targeting rules will not allow you to initiate the ability.
 
2. You can still only target characters controlled by the losing opponent. Despite the slight difference in syntax, this card works the same as other cards with a parenthetical “instead."
 
Thanks!

Danny Schaefer

[mplain]

 

Looks like the same logic would apply to this card -- if there is a War plot revealed and the losing opponent only has 1 power on his faction card, you cannot trigger the ability.

 

EDIT: Daniel confirmed that the following rule applies here:
 

Effects

- When a non-targeting effect attempts to engage a number of entities (such as "draw 3 cards" or "search the top 10 cards of your deck") that exceeds the number of entities that currently exist in the specified game area, the effect engages as many entities as possible.

[wordsmith]

Ok, so the difference here is targeting / non-targeting ability.

So in case there are not enough entities which ability would target:

- if there's the word "choose", it's targeting - i.e. would not resolve if it can't target "all requirements"

- non-targeting ability engages as many entities as possible

 

I think such things could be a part of the Unofficial FAQ we have on this forum.

It might be useful esp. for the new players.

[mplain]

- if there's the word "choose", it's targeting - i.e. would not resolve cannot be initiated if it can't target "all requirements"

 

Fixed that for you.

 

I honestly think this stuff is a bit too advanced, complex, and niche for new players

[Turquine]

I agree. If this trend continues I am afraid the game will become so esoteric that only a handful of wise will be able to play it.

 

... not good for future sales!

[coreybrown787]

You can choose 1 to 3 characters in this scenario, you are not to target three. When the CHOOSE keyword comes in to effect you must choose 1 or more, that is the restriction in the rules, you do not have to target an exact amount.

[Khudzlin]

You can choose 1 to 3 characters in this scenario, you are not to target three. When the CHOOSE keyword comes in to effect you must choose 1 or more, that is the restriction in the rules, you do not have to target an exact amount.

 

No, you must choose an exact number of targets, unless the number is qualified by "up to", which allows you to choose fewer targets.