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Griff

Submitted Darksbane , Jan 11 2012 07:09 PM | Last updated Aug 04 2012 01:50 AM

Griff

Type: Character House: Targaryen
Cost: 3 Strength: 3 Icons: Military,Intrigue, Power
Game Text:
Errata
Knight. Lord.
House Targaryen only.

If Griff would be killed, instead attach him to your House Card as your only agenda with the text: "If you control fewer attachments than each opponent, unattach Griff and return him to play.
Response: After a [Targaryen] attachment you control is discarded from play, kneel 1 influence to return it to your hand."
Crest: Noble
Number: 57 Set: CD
Quantity: 3 Illustrator: Emile Denis

Recent Decks:

Targaryen Dragons AMBUSH
Targ KotHH MegaBurn
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Shadow Guard of King's Landing v1.2

66 Comments

Darksbane

Jan 11 2012 07:15 PM

Spoiled in FFG's article about the new Beyond the Narrow Sea Cycle http://www.fantasyfl...s.asp?eidn=2971

A pretty crazy card, especially with Targaryen attachment manipulation/control. Although I think the recursion is more powerful than the 'agenda' effect. I would most likely play him in a deck running few attachments so he would constantly come back out in play.

branagan3

Jan 11 2012 07:57 PM

So I expect that there will be more clarification that follows these agenda-characters but wow this one looks amazing. My assumption is that if I am already running an agenda Griff will blank it out when he attaches himself. It doesn't look like there is any restriction to not playing him and an agenda. (Can I blank 3 Wildling agendas to win w/ 15 power??)

So as an agenda it doesn't look like Griff gives me any attachment control that I don't already get if he is in play (of course he is now immune from effects that blank or discard). However it seems like it makes more sense to not run any attachments and every time he dies he will just bounce right back into play (unless I'm missing something obvious). This seems amazing and even at a 5 cost I would run him OOH to have a claim soak and unkillable noble tricon.

I might be off on my assessment but still looks to be a real good card to help a weak Targ character pool.

cupcakewinterfell

Jan 11 2012 08:05 PM

3 cost, 3 str, tri-icon, noble crest with attachment control and potential immortality? Even without the silly agenda ability, this is way above average.

I'm not calling doom and gloom or anyting, but im curious to see how much power creep we're going to see in this new chapter. Even if all the houses get 'juiced' cards, it would be pretty annoying to see an even more dramatic shift to newer-is-better than we already have.

cupcakewinterfell

Jan 11 2012 08:15 PM

@branagan3 - if they function like the cards that did this in the ccg era, you cant already be running an agenda. It is a trade off, and pretty obviously the point in the artical of ffg's page: you lose a gaurantee but gain flexibility. It also lets ffg design more 'if you are not running an agenda' style card effects.

branagan3

Jan 11 2012 08:41 PM

@cupcakewinterfell, everything you say makes sense and you have CCG experience that I do not but looking at the card itself things don't add up. A "no agenda deck only" would make sense but without a deck building restriction what happens when he finds himself killed in a agenda running deck and now he has this passive ability that has no obvious answer.

Also the article mentions that when he jumps back into play you lose your recursion ability but I don't see where that is specified on the card. The only thing he does as an agenda is come back into play looking at the card.

Darksbane

Jan 11 2012 09:11 PM

I think they meant losing the attachment recursion ability. Perhaps the attachment recursion would be more interesting if we didn't already have Lady Daenerys's Chambers (Core) but I honestly just can't see anyone caring about that if they can keep a 3 STR tricon noble popping back into play constantly.

cupcakewinterfell

Jan 11 2012 09:32 PM

@brangan3 - since the design idea for the chapter is to introduce core players to the deeper workings of the game (i.e. unclear, sometimes clunky, often needing an faq or errat to fully understand what is going on) i think we can aggree ffg is off to a good start

No i hear you. This kind of card effect is double weird because agendas (per page 3 of the rules) not in play and can never be removed by card effects. So,i imagine, he can not become an agenda if you already have one, since agendas can not be effected by other cards, since they are not in play...

What makes griff oddly clunkier then of the ccg cards of oldO its not restricted to house targarian. Sooooo what happens when you run a deck full of these various characters?

VengefulViper

Jan 11 2012 09:39 PM

If his attachment recursion ability works with Unburnt (QoD) i think it will give you great card advantage, especially in a Valar Morghulis (Core) turn.

playgroundpsychotic

Jan 12 2012 12:31 AM

Also the article mentions that when he jumps back into play you lose your recursion ability but I don't see where that is specified on the card. The only thing he does as an agenda is come back into play looking at the card.

Notice there's quotes. They're a little hard to see admittedly. The self-recursion and attachment recursion are within the same quote block.

Personally, I think he's pretty good but here's a few problems compared to the other comparable tricons.
1 - He blocks out useful agendas. Honestly, I think his agenda ability is not as good as TMP or Summer. One day, I hope that Targ will be able to use their own agenda as well. If there are cards that key off of not having an agenda, his self-recursion ability allows you to make use of that by choosing the time when you can use either. Currently, that's defending yourself against Northern Cavalry Flank (not a bad thing).
2 - He's nothing special himself. He has no special abilities. Targ currently make poor use of the Lord and Knight traits as well as the Noble crest. This could change in the future of course. As it is there are a number of much better 3 (or 4) cost characters.

sWhiteboy

Jan 12 2012 12:42 AM

IDK for certain how it works, but my assumption is that if you are already running an Agenda, then Griff dies like a normal card.

And maybe he only has the Response in Agenda form. Like, everything that follows the passive is part of the Agenda.

Not sure how this isn't supposed to be confusing.

sWhiteboy

Jan 12 2012 12:43 AM

Oh, there are quotes. Good catch playgroundpsychotic.

branagan3

Jan 12 2012 03:19 AM

Quotes! It makes so much more sense now. Still curious to see the official ruling on how it interacts with or is restricted by other agendas. I feel like an unkillable character 3 str tricon that can be used for claim soak and survive valar could be a game changer but in lieu of a different agenda.... i dunno

HowlandReed

May 24 2012 09:55 PM

i love Griff :wub:

Grimwalker

Jun 03 2012 07:38 PM

NooB question--let's say I kill a character with two Flame-Kissed (Core). Can I kneel one Kingsroad Fiefdom (QoD) to save both? I have the sneaking suspicion that I'm wasting one influence, as I have to complete the effect before resolving another eligible response. I'd have to have two Eastern Fiefdoms (QoD) to save both.

n00bcommander

Jun 03 2012 09:46 PM

You would need to use a seperate influence for each each. If you kneel a two influence location to pay one influence the remainder goes unused. Also you would not be able to kill a character using two flamed kissed. The character needs to have no attachements. As soon as the 1st flame kissed was attached you would be unable to attach a second.

Firgus

Jun 25 2012 02:05 PM

You can't kill a character with two Flame-Kissed (Core). It says on the card that it only gives -2 str if there are no other attachments on the character, the two Flame-Kissed (Core) mutually exclude themselves from doing anything.

Laxen

Jun 26 2012 09:24 PM

I just noticed that he isn't House Targ only. Could be interesting.

Enrico

Jul 18 2012 02:02 PM

If I had just one attachment in play and my opponent has none, Griff would return to play before I could trigger his response, wouldn't he?

slothgodfather

Jul 18 2012 02:29 PM

If you control 1 and they control zero, you do have more than your opponent so he would stay as your agenda. If, in the case that you do not have more than your opponent, you are correct, that his passive would take effect well before the opportunity to trigger his response.

Enrico

Jul 19 2012 12:44 AM

I guess I did not explain the situation properly, sorry.
My main question is: if my only attachment is in moribund state (flame kissed on a 3 STR character whose STR has just been lowered to zero by another card effect, for instance) and my opponent has no attachments under his control, would I be able to trigger his response?

slothgodfather

Jul 19 2012 01:22 AM

Oh wait I see what you are trying to do. He is already your agenda, and you do have a flamekiss in play that is now moribund... since you do still control more than your opponent I believe you are allowed the response window to save your attachment from being discarded making it moribund:discard before it ever becomes moribund:discard. Then after the window closes, his passive would kick in and he would put himself back into play. Fairly sure that's how it would go.

slothgodfather

Jul 19 2012 01:41 AM

Wait... since it isn't a save or a cancel to the moribund state, when do you get to trigger this response?

playgroundpsychotic

Jul 19 2012 02:19 AM

Even if the attachment is moribund you still control since it has not left play yet. You will have the opportunity to trigger his response normally (Step 5). Its not a save, its just a response that redirects a moribund state. It does not need to be a save or a cancel. After your attachment leaves play then Griff's return to play passive kicks in.

slothgodfather

Jul 19 2012 05:15 AM

But I'm pretty sure the rules state that once a card is moribund it cannot change it's destination. Will have to wait till tomorrow to get the time to look it up.

Ire

Jul 19 2012 05:46 AM

Yes, as currently worded Griffs agenda response doesn't work. It needs to be a save effect so that it can move the attachment from moribund:discard or it needs an instead word in it.

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Griff

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