Not seeing this as being very viable yet. Short of Ghost Runner, burning inf to get stealth credits. I haven't run the math, but my impression is that Corroder is still better overall in most decks as its an all-in-one.

If you run the stealth suite of ice breakers its going to pay off.  Take a Heimdall 2.0....Corroder cost is 8 to get past...BlacKat cost is 5...which may not sound like much but 3 creds adds up over multiple runs....its all about the compression

Actually it only takes 3 credits to break Heimdall 2.0 (vs. 8 from Corroder), assuming you are using Stealth credits that is.

Yes, obviously it's efficient if you have stealth credits available. But in-faction Anarch you are either relying on Dyson Fractal Generators and / or Ghost Runner to generate the efficiency, which isn't necessarily sustainable, or you are using influence (and MU) for Cloaks.

So, how do you track efficiency here...on just a head to head comparion of a single encounter with a single piece of ice, or by considering the amount of opportunity cost and logistical overhead to set up for that optimal encounter and also to sustain it over multiple encounters?

For instance; total overhead for a basic reasonable set up BlacKat vs Corroder:

2 x BlacKat

3 x Dyson Fractal Generator

3 x Ghost Runner

8 total cards; if out of faction...15 inf

minimum install to use both activated abilities in the same turn, once each

$4: install BlacKat

$2: install Dyson Fractal Generator x 2 or Ghost Runner x2 or x1 each

$6 & 6 clicks invested (draw & install)

or...

2 x Corroder

2 total cards; if out of faction...4 inf

$2: install corroder

2 credits and 2 clicks invested (draw and install)

Personally, I would look at the overall "cost"  in deck slots, influence, number of moving parts, install cost, and so forth with a more pragmatic assessment that right now in most decks with limited slots and influence, Corroder is more viable.

I personally would never use it in faction....Im using a single copy in my shaper deck currently.  With 3 cloaks and 3 ghost runners I dont need the fractal generators...

I think this (and all the Stealth breakers) are better in a Nasir deck.  It doesn't matter if Nasir loses all his money when a piece of ICE is rezzed if all he needs is stealth credits.

Personally, I would look at the overall "cost"  in deck slots, influence, number of moving parts, install cost, and so forth with a more pragmatic assessment that right now in most decks with limited slots and influence, Corroder is more viable.

I won't "quote" the whole post here, but you get the idea.

I agree with you that deck space is the real cost for Stealth breakers, but I want to point to your excellent post on Switchblade to demonstrate just how useful Blackat can be. Blackat and Switchblade are polar opposites in terms of setup, scalability, and sustainability.

Switchblade can only use Stealth credits. The card effectively says "once you've installed this card along with several support cards, get through a powerful Sentry like Archer for free, once per turn." It doesn't say that. It says "Timmy! Timmy! Look at me, Timmy!"

I've been using Refractor as the Decoder in my Hayley deck, and one of the things I really like about it is that not only can it use any credits (Stealth, Bad Publicity, Recurring, Banked, etc.) to break subroutines, but also it has a base strength of 2, which means that, despite requiring Stealth credits to boost its strength, Refractor currently can break 11 different Code Gates without having any support cards on the table. I can put a Refractor out first and run.

Compare that to Dagger, which at least can usefully handle a Rototurret (Burke Bugs and Pup can be handled without a Killer), but otherwise must have support cards in place to be more generally useful, since its inherent strength is zero, and it can only boost with Stealth credits. I think Dagger is a good breaker, if a little slow in setup; Refractor is better.

Like Refractor, Blackat has some inherent strength: 3 is good enough that it too can currently handle 11 different Barriers without getting a boost. Because it doesn't need Stealth credits to boost its strength, however, Blackat can handle any Barrier of strength-4 or less with at least the efficiency of Corroder, even with no other card on the table to support it.

All by itself, Blackat gets through Eli for the same cost as Corroder; (Blackat is 1 credit cheaper versus the strength-3 Barriers: Hive; Markus; Snowflake; Wall of Static, and the same cost at 0-2 and 4).

Once you hit strength-5 Barriers, Corroder is more efficient than an unsupported Blackat. This might be bad news, since Corroder is not really the most efficient thing for the big Barriers (I sometimes include a Breach in my deck, to run alongside Corroder, for this reason). Further, Blackat costs one more influence and 2 more credits to install than Corroder, so what do you get for that?

What you get is a Fracter that scales well into the middle and late phases of the game. Run it unsupported early and you've got a Corroder; then, as you build your rig, Blackat slowly gets more and more efficient at dealing with big (and small) Barriers -- much more efficient than Corroder when the game is on the line, and it doesn't need a Breach to break the big stuff without breaking the bank.

Corroder is easy; it's simple; it's effective. It's also static. Blackat does just as well early (for just a little more initial payout), then it adjusts to a dynamic board state. It is the most resilient and most sustainable of the Stealth breakers.

Switchblade is pure Timmy; Blackat is pure cool: forward-looking, but capable of success right now: a true three-phase breaker.

What you get is a Fracter that scales well into the middle and late phases of the game. Run it unsupported early and you've got a Corroder; then, as you build your rig, Blackat slowly gets more and more efficient at dealing with big (and small) Barriers -- much more efficient than Corroder when the game is on the line, and it doesn't need a Breach to break the big stuff without breaking the bank.

I've been down on BlacKat because of the high influence cost to bring in the associated hardware. Your post was very well reasoned and has convinced me to give it a chance.

I've always liked Corroder because it is cheap to get out and flexible. You are right though that if you don't have support for BlacKat yet, to break, say, Curtain Wall, you wouldn't want to be paying for a Corroder to do it either.

I'm also a fan of splashing some stealth into a non-stealth dedicated deck. Especially out of Shaper where memory comes cheap and keeping in mind that Cloak works with all ICE breakers, not just stealth.

I will add this: I can't get more than one Stealth breaker working particularly well in a single deck. The overhead seems to hit a critical mass, and it becomes a rig-building engine rather than an actual competitive running deck.

So, at least right now, it's either Blackat or Refractor, but not both (for me). Perhaps at some point, I (or someone else) will be able to iron that out . . . I could be too hardware-oriented too.

At any rate, I'm glad you found it convincing enough to give it a go, MW.

Yeah, I'm still not totally sold on BlacKat, but I hear you about not going all Stealth breaker. I personally prefer Dagger over BlacKat, but I can see its value. Refractor is certainly a great choice, for the reasons you mentioned. In some games, it won't need any stealth support.

I can't get more than one Stealth breaker working particularly well in a single deck. The overhead seems to hit a critical mass, and it becomes a rig-building engine rather than an actual competitive running deck.

I've gotten two to work, out of Nasir with multiple Cloaks and Ghosts, but getting all the recurring and pseudo credits onto the board becomes his version of a big rig. Lots of opportunity cost, very busy, and disrupted by unexpected events or bad draw.

Dagger was very good in that deck, Refractor was pretty good in that deck (but Gordian's strength retention was better). I used Battering Ram for barriers due to the strength retention (it actually worked great), so no use for BlackKat.

The underlying thing is that Stealth works ok, but it has a lot of overhead to get going. Personally, I've gotten to where I prefer a more lean runner deck. I'm fond of the counter based breakers & David, sometimes with E3 support. I like the power of them and lack of fuss; just drop and go. I just wish it was viable to run a full suite of all three dog breakers; setting the influence costs so high on a thematic set like that was unfortunate.

I agree with you that deck space is the real cost for Stealth breakers, but I want to point to your excellent post on Switchblade to demonstrate just how useful Blackat can be. Blackat and Switchblade are polar opposites in terms of setup, scalability, and sustainability.

 

Like Refractor, Blackat has some inherent strength: 3 is good enough that it too can currently handle 11 different Barriers without getting a boost. Because it doesn't need Stealth credits to boost its strength, however, Blackat can handle any Barrier of strength-4 or less with at least the efficiency of Corroder, even with no other card on the table to support it.

 

All by itself, Blackat gets through Eli for the same cost as Corroder; (Blackat is 1 credit cheaper versus the strength-3 Barriers: Hive; Markus; Snowflake; Wall of Static, and the same cost at 0-2 and 4).

 

Once you hit strength-5 Barriers, Corroder is more efficient than an unsupported Blackat. This might be bad news, since Corroder is not really the most efficient thing for the big Barriers (I sometimes include a Breach in my deck, to run alongside Corroder, for this reason). Further, Blackat costs one more influence and 2 more credits to install than Corroder, so what do you get for that?

 

What you get is a Fracter that scales well into the middle and late phases of the game. Run it unsupported early and you've got a Corroder; then, as you build your rig, Blackat slowly gets more and more efficient at dealing with big (and small) Barriers -- much more efficient than Corroder when the game is on the line, and it doesn't need a Breach to break the big stuff without breaking the bank.

 

Corroder is easy; it's simple; it's effective. It's also static. Blackat does just as well early (for just a little more initial payout), then it adjusts to a dynamic board state. It is the most resilient and most sustainable of the Stealth breakers.

 

Blackat is pure cool: forward-looking, but capable of success right now: a true three-phase breaker.

That's fair analysis. If you don't mind taking on the overhead of stealth credits or it's part of a larger game plan, then sure, BlacKat can be viable.

I don't actually agree that it is the "most resilient and sustainable" of the stealth breakers; I think Refractor is much better than BlacKat. But that's just an opinion, and yours is of course equally valid.

Here's my main concerns with BlacKat:

• Out of faction It does not make sense to me due to its high influence cost and stealth dependency.
• In faction Corroder just works and gets it done. It's such a good breaker, that it's the breaker most non-Anarch decks spend influence to get even when viable options are available in faction. Yes, BlacKat can put up similar numbers on the low end if you overlook the install cost difference, but just like in a foot race where the difference between first and second is usually a matter of milliseconds so to does the difference in a couple of credits to get a breaker installed and doing some work have significance when comparing them.
• It is fair to say that BlacKat has competitive numbers in some bands, and can scale upwards with support, but the same could be said of Corroder if you did something like put a Personal Touch on it or host it on Dinosaurus. You probably wouldn't do either of those things in a real game, but card slot for card slot it's a more fair comparison than comparing BlacKat + stealth to Corroder + nothing to declare BlacKat the winner.
• I'm not a cat person. I like dogs. My bias is finally revealed.

Personally, I like BlacKat more than Corroder. At least in Anarch, where you don't need to burn influence. It simply crushes barriers with multiple subroutines; like Spiderweb, Ashigaru, NEXT Silver or Galahad. Sure, Cerberus Lady does that too, but it depletes itself and is very influence-heavy in Anarch. Dedicating 3 deck slots to Dyson Fractal Generator isn't much of a problem.