One word: Parasite

I want to like this... but:

One word: Parasite

Bar the cost one of the better sentry cards in jinteki arsenal - if you see opening for finishing stroke you don't pay 1 and let him eat tons of damage... if you have fatal AI and basic Ident its game over.

Parasite is far from a unique problem, though. Nearly every ICE is afraid of Parasite to some degree. While Tsurugi is admittedly more vulnerable to Parasite than other ICE, I still think it's a decent ICE. It costs six to rez, and costs most runners four to break (Mimic, Femme, Atman). That's a decent cost ratio. Against some runners it gets even better (6 for Crypsis, 7 for Ninja, 8 for Knight). The subroutines are perfect for Jinteki as well. I'll need to test it to see just how useful it is, but it doesn't seem terrible.

Whirpool > Tsurugi > Neural Katana = one flat lined runner if he had no sentry ice breaker!

I want to like this... but:

One word: Parasite

Here's the problem with that statement,the same exact thing can be said of rototurret. Are you suggesting that rottoturret is bad ice?

Here's the problem with that statement,the same exact thing can be said of rototurret. Are you suggesting that rottoturret is bad ice?

I think the difference between Rototurret and Tsurugi is the difference between surprise and attrition.

Normally (unless things are desperate) you rez Rototurret to destroy a runner's program, and you don't ever really expect that ice to 'hit' again. If I blow up my opponents Yog.0 , only to have Rototurret die/derez next turn, I am not bothered by it.

Tsurugi's main benefit over Neural Katana is that it takes (most) sentry breakers an extra three credits to break. It is great if you hit them with etr/3 damage, but I think you would normally rez it to prevent regular running on a server. If the runner does run parasite, best case scenario is that you hit them for 3 net damage and keep them out for that turn and the next, for 6/7 credits vs 2 credits and 4 cards. The runners economy is general is too strong for the corp to regularly allow this exchange.

If Parasite is not prevalent in the meta though, I would probably run this over Neural Katana.

This would have been way nicer (and in no way overpowered) at 4-5 strength, or 3 at the very least.

It would be sure as hell overpowered at 4 or 5 strength. That means this thing is then nearly as hard to break through as ARCHER. And cost more for nearly all sentry breakers than TOLLBOOTH does for the best code gate breakers!

The thing already costs a dead minimum of 4 for the runner to pay through (faerie/deus x aside), which is excellent for a mere 6 rez cost. Only 2 more than a Neural Katana.

As for Parasite? EVERY ICE is vulnerable to parasite and datasuckers. This thing doesn't die instantly to a grimoired parasite though, so a mid-run install won't do it without ice carvers or datasuckers.

Tsurugi is very good.

I think the difference between Rototurret and Tsurugi is the difference between surprise and attrition.

Normally (unless things are desperate) you rez Rototurret to destroy a runner's program, and you don't ever really expect that ice to 'hit' again. If I blow up my opponents Yog.0 , only to have Rototurret die/derez next turn, I am not bothered by it.

Tsurugi's main benefit over Neural Katana is that it takes (most) sentry breakers an extra three credits to break. It is great if you hit them with etr/3 damage, but I think you would normally rez it to prevent regular running on a server. If the runner does run parasite, best case scenario is that you hit them for 3 net damage and keep them out for that turn and the next, for 6/7 credits vs 2 credits and 4 cards. The runners economy is general is too strong for the corp to regularly allow this exchange.

If Parasite is not prevalent in the meta though, I would probably run this over Neural Katana.

This is right on the mark. Tsurugi and Rototurret are ice that only hit once. Rototurret is great because it only costs 4 and trashes a program AND ends the run. Tsurugi costs 6 to end the run OR 7 to deal 3 damage. If you want to deal 3 damage, Neural Katana is certainly better. If you actually look at the effects of both cards (trash+etr vs 3 dmg), I would argue that trash+etr is usually better. 3 damage is consistently solid, whereas trashing a key program can be game-changing. Plus, you can't overlook the fact that Rototurret actually ends the run as well, which makes it a solid early remote option. Lure the runner into running before they have a sentry breaker, end the run and trash a program. Sure, Tsurugi can end the run as well, but $6 seems like a lot for just ending the run and not actually doing any damage.

Something to keep in mind with this discussion is that almost every competitive runner deck uses either Parasite or Shutdown (if not both), both of which are very good against Tsurugi. Arguments like how it costs $4 to break through with Femme/Atman/Mimic aren't really relevant because the runner will very rarely actually be paying to get through.

With regard to people saying "all ice is vulnerable to parasite", correct. All ice is also vulnerable to crypsis, but does that mean that there isn't a giant spread in their vulnerability? Compare the parasite vulnerability of Tsurugi to Tollbooth. With tollbooth, if you have decent central protection then you only have to wipe viruses every 3 to 4 turns to keep it alive. Heavy support from datasucker is NECESSARY if the runner wants to kill it. Even if the runner is capable of killing it with datasuckers, they still have to pay $3 first. Once Tsurugi gets parasited, you aren't going to save it, barring somehow trashing parasite. That's what I mean about it being vulnerable to parasite. It dies to parasite even without any support from datasuckers/ice carver, etc.

This is right on the mark. Tsurugi and Rototurret are ice that only hit once. Rototurret is great because it only costs 4 and trashes a program AND ends the run. Tsurugi costs 6 to end the run OR 7 to deal 3 damage. If you want to deal 3 damage, Neural Katana is certainly better. If you actually look at the effects of both cards (trash+etr vs 3 dmg), I would argue that trash+etr is usually better. 3 damage is consistently solid, whereas trashing a key program can be game-changing. Plus, you can't overlook the fact that Rototurret actually ends the run as well, which makes it a solid early remote option. Lure the runner into running before they have a sentry breaker, end the run and trash a program. Sure, Tsurugi can end the run as well, but $6 seems like a lot for just ending the run and not actually doing any damage.

Something to keep in mind with this discussion is that almost every competitive runner deck uses either Parasite or Shutdown (if not both), both of which are very good against Tsurugi. Arguments like how it costs $4 to break through with Femme/Atman/Mimic aren't really relevant because the runner will very rarely actually be paying to get through.

With regard to people saying "all ice is vulnerable to parasite", correct. All ice is also vulnerable to crypsis, but does that mean that there isn't a giant spread in their vulnerability? Compare the parasite vulnerability of Tsurugi to Tollbooth. With tollbooth, if you have decent central protection then you only have to wipe viruses every 3 to 4 turns to keep it alive. Heavy support from datasucker is NECESSARY if the runner wants to kill it. Even if the runner is capable of killing it with datasuckers, they still have to pay $3 first. Once Tsurugi gets parasited, you aren't going to save it, barring somehow trashing parasite. That's what I mean about it being vulnerable to parasite. It dies to parasite even without any support from datasuckers/ice carver, etc.

I think you're falling into a "...if it's not a strength 10 ice with 5 ETR subroutines it's bad ice" fallacy. Jinteki is never ever ever going to get that ice so leave it alone. Tsurugi is a great tempo ice. You hit it and you have to wait even if you have clone chip out and a grimoire out and a parasite in archives you still have to wait. And unless you're willing to risk the entire game my guess is that after you just took 3 to the face you're not going to go and find out if that 2 advanced card is a junebug or not so it ends the run just the same. So the corp just bought itself some time and that's all that ice is supposed to do anyways.

You say yourself that even in a perfect scenario (well protected centrals) the corp has to wipe every 3-4 turns in order to save its Tollbooth. That kind of tempo swing is insane and obviously it's basically unsustainable. So really a Tollbooth is just as vulnerable to parasites as anything else. So really you're simply arguing for how good parasite is (and to a lesser extent Emergency shutdown) not how bad Tsurugi is. And you'll get no argument from me whatsoever about how good parasite is.

nvm.. found my answer in the rulebook..

When this card came out, I was facing insta-parasite and data sucker and econ denial out of every faction. Katman was big, but I saw the same trick out of blue and red. Clone Chip + 'Site + 'sucker. And vamp and/or Siphon.

So I was not excited to see this ice.

Maybe it's better now where I only see Parasite out of most decks, instead of every deck as it used to be.

Here's the problem with that statement,the same exact thing can be said of rototurret. Are you suggesting that rottoturret is bad ice?

Rototurret would be very bad if it cost six, yes.

It is true that parasite isn't as ubiquitous as it once was, but that's not very relevant as it is still commonly played and thus still must be respected if you are going into a format where you will playing your deck vs unknown opponent / decks.

 

 

Tsurugi is not efficient, and there are better options for EtR and better options for inflicting net damage. The combination of the two in a many subroutine ice does have an impressive optimal potential...but sadly in practice it will rarely realize that potential.

 

However, it does complement other multi-sub heavy net damage ice. If you've only got Tsurugi and a collection of less threatening ice then it will be a parasite magnet and die quickly. But if you've got a posse of other similar taxing / annoying ice it can force the runner to juggle their parasites and thus tax them indirectly with recursion overhead.

 

It also has a little bit of synergy as the outermost central server ice in Jinteki RP as the runner can't assume that they'll just bounce off of it to negate the RP identity ability, but generally this is just a "precious" interaction and it's unlikely to be worth the awkwardness of setting up the board state to leverage it.

 

So, yeah, it's a card that has some usage, but its lopsided cost to strength ratio prevents it from being an auto-include.