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Just to be sure, Player A will get how much gold in this scenario?
5, as printed on Varys's Riddle, plus any modifiers from other cards in play.
This interaction will not modify anything about Varys's Riddle, it will only affect Summer Harvest.
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Varys Riddle vs Summer harvest
1 votes
Started by
FedericoFasullo
, Aug 01 2016 01:30 PM
Best Answer ktom , 04 August 2016 - 12:00 AM
Looks like I was remembering/applying 1.0 logic to 2.0 cards:
The specific question deals with Varys' Riddle: ("When Revealed: Initiate the when revealed ability on a revealed non-Riddle plot card as if you had just revealed it.") When this resolves and you initiate the "when revealed" ability of another plot card, do the reference perspectives of the other plot card remain the same as they would for the plot card, or would they change?
For example, Power Behind the Throne ("When Revealed: Place 1 stand token on Power Behind the Throne.") When initiating the "native" plot ability, it is self-referential and the stand token must specifically be placed on that copy of the card. But when initiating the ability with Varys' Riddle, would the ability remain self-referential (and the stand token must be placed on that copy of Power Behind the Throne), or does it stop being self-referential - since you are resolving Varys' Riddle by initiating/resolving PBtT - thus allowing you to put the token on any card with the title "Power Behind the Throne."A little more complex example would be Summer Harvest ("When Revealed: Choose an opponent. X is 2 higher than the printed gold value on that player's revealed plot card." - Spoiled in the Called to Arms article). The text of this ability doesn't actually make any specific reference to which "X" it refers to, so the assumption seems to be that it refers to the X on the card to which the ability is associated as a peripheral entity. But if this "when revealed" is initiated by Varys' Riddle, does "X" still refer to the income of Summer Harvest, does it refer to nothing at all because there is no X associated with Varys' Riddle, or are you able to choose any X currently on the board?Much of the confusion is probably associated with what, exactly, is considered to be initiating and resolving when the ability on Card A specifically "initiates" the ability on Card B.Thanks in advance
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I think it is probably best to maintain that "the when revealed ability on card B†is what is resolving when determining reference points in both of these case. Put another way, the resolution of Card A (Varys’s Riddle) causes the initiation and resolution of Card B, and once Card B is resolving (as if you had just revealed it), you can effectively forget that card A was even involved.
So that:1) Using Varys’ Riddle to resolve a Power Behind the Throne means that the stand token must be placed on the exact card on which the Power Behind the Throne ability is printed. (It’s a self-referential ability that is resolving, so the self-referential rules apply.)2) For Summer Harvest, the “X†being referred to is the “X†on the exact card on which the currently resolving Summer Harvest ability is printed. (It is worth noting that “as if you had just revealed it†in this example does change who is and is not an eligible target for “Choose an opponent.â€) This will create a situation in which there are two conflicting lasting “X is 2 higher than...†abilities in effect, and the first player should determine which is used.Nate FrenchSenior LCG DesignerFantasy Flight Games
#21
Posted 15 September 2016 - 10:02 PM
mplain
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#22
Posted 17 September 2016 - 10:50 AM
Khudzlin
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If Summer Harvest's income is determined in relation to Varys's Riddle, it'll be 7 (5 printed on Varys's Riddle +2 as specified in Summer Harvest's When revealed).
#23
Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:48 PM
MuushusPork
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5, as printed on Varys's Riddle, plus any modifiers from other cards in play.
This interaction will not modify anything about Varys's Riddle, it will only affect Summer Harvest.
If Summer Harvest's income is determined in relation to Varys's Riddle, it'll be 7 (5 printed on Varys's Riddle +2 as specified in Summer Harvest's When revealed).
?????????
#24
Posted 23 September 2016 - 03:54 PM
bored2excess
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?????????
They were both correct answers, but Khudzlin's was to a question that was not asked.
The plot values possible in this interaction are:
5 on riddle (always)
2 on harvest (riddle triggers second and resets harvest's value to 0+2)
7 on harvest (harvest triggers second and resets it's own value to 5+2)
Usually in this interaction first player will have control over picking harvest's result (this can influence the decision of the initiative winner).
This is fully confirmed and correct. I hope this is clear now.
- FedericoFasullo, MuushusPork and Simonmmm like this
#25
Posted 23 September 2016 - 06:12 PM
mplain
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2 on harvest (riddle triggers second and resets harvest's value to 0+2)
7 on harvest (harvest triggers second and resets it's own value to 5+2)
Note that it does not matter which When Revealed ability triggers first and which second. After the second ability resolves, the first player makes a choice on how to apply two conflicting constant abilities.
A technicality.
#26
Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:44 PM
Colombre
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Note that it does not matter which When Revealed ability triggers first and which second. After the second ability resolves, the first player makes a choice on how to apply two conflicting constant abilities.
A technicality.
I Do not agree "x" is not 0, is 5 also in the first "when revealed" effect. Varys doesn't "reset" anything. X has a precise value: the opponent PRINTED income,
#27
Posted 16 October 2016 - 11:47 AM
Khudzlin
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I Do not agree "x" is not 0, is 5 also in the first "when revealed" effect. Varys doesn't "reset" anything. X has a precise value: the opponent PRINTED income,
You are missing that "opponent" is relative to the player triggering the plot's effect, not to the player who owns the plot. When Summer Harvest is triggered directly, the opponent is Varys's Riddle's controller, but when it's triggered by Varys's Riddle, the opponent is Summer Harvest's controller.
