484 replies to this topic

[Kaloo]

Yeah, that is an excellent way to put it, and it explains why I was not particularly good with the deck. I'm trying to play fundamentals with a combo deck. Very well put! The history makes total sense.

I do want to challenge one assumption that continues to be made here, though. The Coteaz "death ball" needs to be fully spelled out and evaluated, because I was able to create some "death ball" style scenarios that fell completely flat.

The basic gist is Coteaz + Henchmen (as many as possible) + Cadian (as many as possible) + 1-2 decent units like Mystic Warden or the new Honor Guard and a line of chuds (Psyker, Recruits, Tokens, etc). You get this on a planet where the big climactic battle takes place (which is a challenge all its own). Let's assume we have 1 of everything.

1. Play Preemptive Barrage on Coteaz, Mystic Warden, Honor Guard (at green)
2. Swing with Cadian for 1 damage
3. Swing with Warden for 2 damage
4. Swing with Honor Guard for 2 damage
5. Sacrifice Psyker
6. Swing with Coteaz for 3 damage
7. Sacrifice Henchmen
8. Swing with Cadian for 1 damage
9. Swing with Coteaz for 3 damage
    

While we can talk about having 3 Cadian and 3 Henchmen and churning steps 8-9 a few more times, no matter what it looks very underwhelming to me. For this end game, not only have you lost two units during "processing" (at least 2-3 resources and 1-2 cards invested) but you have spent the entire game trying to win Command Struggles with a Warlord who cannot attack without supporting units - and even then, a single 2-shield means that you have to retreat.

I understand more than ever that this is a "combo" deck, but why is anyone convinced that this combo is strong enough to make fundamental sacrifices? What am I missing?

Just a note, to make that example more optimal I would have swung with the Cadian first at step 6, then with Coteaz (or the other way round), before sacrificing the Henchmen. Does add in that extra 1 damage (or more if more cadians are around)

[botounami]

Yeah I'll edit that in! Right idea.

[SyntaxLost]

1. Play Preemptive Barrage on Coteaz, Mystic Warden, Honor Guard (at green)
2. Swing with Cadian for 1 damage
3. Swing with Warden for 2 damage
4. Swing with Honor Guard for 2 damage
5. Sacrifice Psyker
6. Swing with Cadian for 1 damage
7. Swing with Coteaz for 3 damage
8. Sacrifice Henchmen
9. Swing with Cadian for 1 damage
10. Swing with Coteaz for 3 damage

 

I would probably Preemptive the Henchmen over the Honour Guard in this sequence. The reason being that the opponent must attack the Mortar Squad first, otherwise it continues to ready. Also note the firepower output (all ranged):

 

Warden: 2

Henchmen: 4

Mortar Squad: 3 (fully divisible and delivered in 1-point increments)

Psyker: 3

 

You're down 5R3C, but you've likely traded off more than their weight in your opponent's best ready units with 12 points of damage.

 

And this is a little low end in my opinion. You can usually get an Eagle (or Black Ship), and Markis in on the action. An additional Mortar Squad is also possible if undisrupted. From my own personal experience, this sort of sequence isn't quite as unlikely as it looks (total damage dealt in parentheses):

1. Markis opponent's biggest threat at end of command (Mortar Squads ready)
2. Mortar Squad (1)
3. Mortar Squad (2)
4. Preemptive (Warden, Coteaz, Henchmen)
5. Henchmen (3)
6. Warden (5)
7. Sac Warden and Mortar Squads ready
8. Mortar Squad (6)
9. Mortar Squad (7)
10. Coteaz with Eagle (11)
11. Sac Henchmen and Mortar Squads ready
12. Mortar Squad (12)
13. Mortar Squad (13)
14. Coteaz (17)
15. Detach Eagle, bounce and Mortar Squads ready
16. Mortar Squad (18)
17. Mortar Squad (19)
18. You could sac again with the Coteaz and/or Markis and get another round (or two) with the Mortar Squads in.

Whatever remains of opponent must counter-attack Guardsmen tokens, Coteaz or the Mortar Squads first, otherwise the Mortars ready again. Opponent's largest threat is also exhausted and you still have a Markis activation available if you need additional control. Double Mortar Squads are in Christmas-land territory against Terror and Chaos, but it's quite feasible against other factions (e.g. SM). 

 

 

While we can talk about having 3 Cadian and 3 Henchmen and churning steps 8-9 a few more times, no matter what it looks very underwhelming to me. For this end game, not only have you lost two units during "processing" (at least 2-3 resources and 1-2 cards invested) but you have spent the entire game trying to win Command Struggles with a Warlord who cannot attack without supporting units - and even then, a single 2-shield means that you have to retreat.

 

Warlord commitment with Coteaz requires a little pre-planning during deployment to avoid the sort of disruption I've bolded in the above quote. When building your board during deployment (and even on how you retreat units on the previous turn), you should already be forming an idea on how you want to commit Coteaz that turn and be mindful of what sort of disruption you could face.

 

I think catachan and to arms! should be considered as a bloody combo. Also augur for its ability to pull up a catachan after sacrifice which itself changes the combat math.

 

There are combos like you give, and then there are big 'C' Combos like the sequence I give above.

[SyntaxLost]

If you want more of a small 'c' combo deck, you could try:

-3x Mortar Squad

-1x Troop Transport

+1x Mystic Warden

+3x Staging Ground

 

And probably cut the Musters for Warrants or something different though Ammo Depots could still get stuck as a result.

 

I don't think you'll be favoured against Kith and Sowing Chaos could be very difficult to play around but you might be able to catch them off guard with Staging Ground->Warden + Preemptive burst damage.

[Eu8L1ch]

Thanks for the numbers, SyntaxLost!

 

 

Ignoring Syren's reaction, unique, Palace and Raid. Mulligan for 5 hammers.

 

WC Kith (Superiority counts as 1-for-2 played off opening resources): 6.33 6.21

WC Kith (Ignore Superiority): 5.71 (3.84 actions) 5.55 (3.84 actions)

 

 

Disregarding Blackmane's Hunt and Ragnar's trigger. Howl is also a relevant card though it doesn't impact command directly the round it's played. Mulligan for 5.

 

Ragnar (IFSF counts as 2-for-2): 5.58 (3.96 actions)

Ragnar (IFSF counts as 2-for-1): 5.46

 

 

This is not accurate for Zarathur at all in my opinion. PoG and SPA make a big difference.

 

Zarathur (mulligan for Depot): 4.15 (5.57 actions)

 

So Kith, without considering Syren's text (and the command choke performed by Palace) is still at a very high 6.21 with Superiority (which is not as good as a 2-2 in the long term even if it is better in the short). it looks it's accurate to say that Kith has a strong command; in fact, stronger than Kingsley's Ragnar, which is perhaps to be considered the strongest version command-wise.

For Zarathur, I agree this simulation is not representative of his command strength, but there is an interesting thing to note: even if the hammers are far from the top notch (which looks to be around 6) it still has the amazing amount of 5.57 actions - that's some really serious stall - without considering SPA and PoG!

 

 

 

Back to Coteaz, I think Troop Transport really helped him a lot - it's an awesome card, so nothing surprising here.

However I still think Coteaz without Catachan loses a lot of his strength, as the Mortar shenaningans have a hard time compensating for the raw power Catachan provides.

I still mantain that Catachan is one of the best non-sig supports in the game (in the top 3 IMO), and, unlike Palace, it only gets *more* ridiculous if you draw additional copies.

[SyntaxLost]

So Kith, without considering Syren's text (and the command choke performed by Palace) is still at a very high 6.21 with Superiority (which is not as good as a 2-2 in the long term even if it is better in the short). it looks it's accurate to say that Kith has a strong command; in fact, stronger than Kingsley's Ragnar, which is perhaps to be considered the strongest version command-wise.

 

I advocate consistently tying command struggles rather the splitting wins against an opponent that's playing Superiority. It's lot less effective if it's only working as a single, temporary hammer and leaves Kith a lot weaker in the opening command struggles, as you can see.

 

Howl adds something more to Ragnar (or Cato or Mavros) although it contributes no hammers to the opening command. If you can get it to fire, the payoff is sufficient that you can start snowballing command on later turns if your opponent's wins aren't able to match the 3 extra cards. However, it's a little unreliable due to the matching commitment requirement.

 

 

For Zarathur, I agree this simulation is not representative of his command strength, but there is an interesting thing to note: even if the hammers are far from the top notch (which looks to be around 6) it still has the amazing amount of 5.57 actions - that's some really serious stall - without considering SPA and PoG!

 

I'd guess that around 6 actions is probable with about 4.7 raw hammers average. However, this doesn't capture the value in SPA which is sneaky unit that's actually really good in command when you're playing Daemons. Played correctly, a SPA can usually force 2 hammers to a planet after which you can sac it to deploy a Daemon elsewhere, effectively negating an opposing hammer while also gaining you an extra resource worth of material on the board.

 

 

Back to Coteaz, I think Troop Transport really helped him a lot - it's an awesome card, so nothing surprising here.

However I still think Coteaz without Catachan loses a lot of his strength, as the Mortar shenaningans have a hard time compensating for the raw power Catachan provides.

I still mantain that Catachan is one of the best non-sig supports in the game (in the top 3 IMO), and, unlike Palace, it only gets *more* ridiculous if you draw additional copies.

 

I disagree with this. As it has no hammers, Catachan is a fairly weak early game deploy when farming is most critical. I do concede that multiples are very strong though, if your opponent lacks an answer to the one big attack.

[ultimate26]

Is there a good reason to play coteaz over broderick? I feel that he has nothing that is as good or better than broderick

[StingerMK2]

Is there a good reason to play coteaz over broderick? I feel that he has nothing that is as good or better than broderick

Playstyle, just because something isn't as strong doesn't mean it's not as rewarding to play. This same sentiment was used against Ku'gath for a long time ("why would I use Ku’gath when EVERYTHING is better in Zarathur?") I feel alot of the players making these claims never give the warlords in question the time of day, and never really drill down into what make these warlords not only fun but competetive to play as.

I personally can't speak for Coteaz but I know I'm a much better Ku'gath player than I am Zarathur and would prefer to play as him any day of the week.

[Ultramarine]

Playstyle, just because something isn't as strong doesn't mean it's not as rewarding to play. This same sentiment was used against Ku'gath for a long time ("why would I use Ku’gath when EVERYTHING is better in Zarathur?") I feel alot of the players making these claims never give the warlords in question the time of day, and never really drill down into what make these warlords not only fun but competetive to play as.

I personally can't speak for Coteaz but I know I'm a much better Ku'gath player than I am Zarathur and would prefer to play as him any day of the week.

Same here. I also rather play with Zogwart than Nazdreg. It's all personal preference really.

[SyntaxLost]

Is there a good reason to play coteaz over broderick? I feel that he has nothing that is as good or better than broderick

 

Go back to page 21 for a discussion about 8/8. Worr's probably better though, but it's not 100% clear cut.

[nicky1314]

Thanks for the great discussion! About the worr vs coteaz, my opinion is that worr is more stable than the other two warlords. Despite the green planet thing there is little variance within the deck. On the other hand, worr lacks the "I win" moves that coteaz can have. As pointed above worr is more linear where coteaz is more explosive and has more capacity to come back.

[botounami]

So where are we on these builds post-Troop Transport and Shrine Guard?

It seems there are two main builds. Both rely primarily on Preemptive Barrage combos as the win condition, taking advantage of Coteaz' ability to stand up Cadian and himself multiple times.

One is more swarmy, using the cost-effective Orks, Staging Grounds, and Ammo Depot to keep the bodies coming. Its strengths are a good command game, card advantage through Depot, and Biker/Snakebite out of Staging Ground.

 

The other is more assassination-focused, using Eager Recruit, Catachan, and To Arms! to threaten any Warlord who exhausts. Its strengths are easier command sniping/commit freedom, access to Area of Effect through Cardinis, and a stronger Preemptive end game due to Catachan/To Arms!.

Am I looking at this correctly? And if so, does the Troop Transport / Shrine Guard work into these builds effectively? Do those cards create new builds or opportunities for Coteaz?

It seems obvious that Troop Transport is a big card for Coteaz. It seems like it would render Staging Ground much less necessary, and might potentially alter those builds accordingly. I think it is particularly strong in a build with Catachan / To Arms! / Eager Recruit, as it makes the "all of the sudden" planet dogpile at the end of combat that much more impressive.

[Asklepios]

Thanks for the great discussion! About the worr vs coteaz, my opinion is that worr is more stable than the other two warlords. Despite the green planet thing there is little variance within the deck. On the other hand, worr lacks the "I win" moves that coteaz can have. As pointed above worr is more linear where coteaz is more explosive and has more capacity to come back.

 

Worr has a great "I win" move called Forward Barracks. Seriously, if you've got a decent number of AM units in the warlord train and your opponent doesn't have swarm control, its game over.

[SyntaxLost]

Or Corpses. Play Corpses. Corpses is really good.

[dfwiii]

Or Corpses. Play Corpses. Corpses is really good.

At this point, I think that's the only reason to play Swarmlord over OOE.

[SyntaxLost]

It's a really good reason. Heck, it makes Tervigon playable on OOE. Having an excellent answer to cards that would otherwise be auto-win gives you a lot of security. Swarmlord's sig. squad isn't bad either. Horror is good and the Brood Warriors are excellent command units (they're a little weak on turn 1 though). Statwise, Swarmlord isn't bad at 2/6, it's just the delay between his reaction and the Termagants relevance can make him a little more difficult to play.

[Solaris]

Nice to hear that a Corteaz deck has won a tournament recently. Anyway, I've been thinking about the upcoming card Imperial Rally Point. Combining with Muster the Guards, I can it may be possible to deploy large units like Leman Russ early, and thanks to Inspirational Fervor those units can be relocated elsewhere. What do you guys think?

 

[SyntaxLost]

You'll gain a lot more value out of Muster and Rally Point if you play lots of cheap units rather than fewer large ones.

[LilBabyDragon]

The sweet spot for the Muster the Guard/Rally Point combo is 3 cost units, isn't it? Any cheaper than that and you don't get the benefit of both cards, I believe. Steel Legion Chimera for 1 ain't too shabby.

[Kaloo]

Slight issue with Muster + Rally is that you can't reduce the cost of units below 1 on the attached planet. This means that both a 2 cost and a 1 cost unit will cost 1 at a Rally Point planet even if Muster is used, although this is easily played around by simply playing said units to other planets instead.

Regardless, Rally + Fervor looks like a solid combo