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Varys Riddle vs Summer harvest

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Best Answer ktom , 04 August 2016 - 12:00 AM

Looks like I was remembering/applying 1.0 logic to 2.0 cards:

 

 

The specific question deals with Varys' Riddle: ("When Revealed: Initiate the when revealed ability on a revealed non-Riddle plot card as if you had just revealed it.") When this resolves and you initiate the "when revealed" ability of another plot card, do the reference perspectives of the other plot card remain the same as they would for the plot card, or would they change?

 
For example, Power Behind the Throne ("When Revealed: Place 1 stand token on Power Behind the Throne.") When initiating the "native" plot ability, it is self-referential and the stand token must specifically be placed on that copy of the card. But when initiating the ability with Varys' Riddle, would the ability remain self-referential (and the stand token must be placed on that copy of Power Behind the Throne), or does it stop being self-referential - since you are resolving Varys' Riddle by initiating/resolving PBtT - thus allowing you to put the token on any card with the title "Power Behind the Throne."
 
A little more complex example would be Summer Harvest ("When Revealed: Choose an opponent. X is 2 higher than the printed gold value on that player's revealed plot card." - Spoiled in the Called to Arms article). The text of this ability doesn't actually make any specific reference to which "X" it refers to, so the assumption seems to be that it refers to the X on the card to which the ability is associated as a peripheral entity. But if this "when revealed" is initiated by Varys' Riddle, does "X" still refer to the income of Summer Harvest, does it refer to nothing at all because there is no X associated with Varys' Riddle, or are you able to choose any X currently on the board?
 
Much of the confusion is probably associated with what, exactly, is considered to be initiating and resolving when the ability on Card A specifically "initiates" the ability on Card B.
 
Thanks in advance

 

 

I think it is probably best to maintain that "the when revealed ability on card B” is what is resolving when determining reference points in both of these case. Put another way, the resolution of Card A (Varys’s Riddle) causes the initiation and resolution of Card B, and once Card B is resolving (as if you had just revealed it), you can effectively forget that card A was even involved.

 
So that: 
 
1) Using Varys’ Riddle to resolve a Power Behind the Throne means that the stand token must be placed on the exact card on which the Power Behind the Throne ability is printed. (It’s a self-referential ability that is resolving, so the self-referential rules apply.)
 
2) For Summer Harvest, the “X” being referred to is the “X” on the exact card on which the currently resolving Summer Harvest ability is printed. (It is worth noting that “as if you had just revealed it” in this example does change who is and is not an eligible target for “Choose an opponent.”) This will create a situation in which there are two conflicting lasting “X is 2 higher than...” abilities in effect, and the first player should determine which is used.
 
Nate French
Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
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26 replies to this topic

#1
FedericoFasullo

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gt10_summer-harvest.png

04020.png

 

So here's the question.

 

- player A flipped Varys Riddle and he is also FP.

- player A decides that Summer harvest resolve first, player B trigger summer harverst, now X is set to 7

- player A triggers Varys's Riddle, which trigger summer harvest again to set X to 2.

 

Am I right? I bet 5€ against mplain

 

 

xx When a value is “set” to a specific number, the set

modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including
any new non-set modifiers that are added during the
duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers
are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier
takes precedence.


#2
ktom

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Please note that the "set" rule has nothing to do with this scenario. Since the word "set" is not used in the text of either plot, it does not apply here. (Putting the word "set" in quotation marks in the RRG entry you quote indicates that the word is what invokes the rule, not the act of determining a lasting value for a particular variable.) Since you do not have "multiple set modifiers," the rules regarding a conflict in multiple set modifiers does not provide your answer.

 

What does provide your answer is "Priority of Simultaneous Resolution." But first, let's make sure we are all starting at the same point.

 

- Summer Harvest initiates and Player B chooses Player A, whose plot card has a printed income of 5. So the "when revealed" on Summer Harvest creates a lasting effect (it creates an "effect or condition that affect the game state for a specified duration" - that specified duration being "while the affected card is in play" since no particular time period is stated - so yes, it is a lasting effect) that makes the "X" for its income "X = 5 + 2 = 7."

- Varys' Riddle then initiates, and Player A chooses to initiate the "when revealed" on Summer Harvest, choosing Player B. Player B's revealed plot card has a printed income value of X, which is treated as 0 for calculations as per the RRG, thus creating a lasting effect that makes the income value of "X" on Summer Harvest "X = X + 2 = 0 + 2 = 2."

 

Ultimately, the First Player gets to choose the order in which the "when revealed" effects initiate, but since they both create lasting effects (not "set" effect), you have are really dealing with competing, simultaneously valid lasting effects - one that makes X = 7, the other that makes X = 2 - when the Summer Harvest player counts income. According to the RRG entry for the Priority of Simultaneous Resolution:

"If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects cannot be applied simultaneously, the first player determines the order in which the constant abilities are applied."

 

So, the first player gets to choose the order in which the "X" value lasting effects are applied (with the last one applied controlling) when the value of X is checked for the purpose of counting income (or anything else that references the (non-printed) income value on Summer Harvest).

 

 

In terms of your bet, you're not correct in that choosing the order of the plot resolution does not dictate the ultimate value of X. But you are correct in that once all the "When Revealed" effects are resolved, the First Player will have control over whether X is treated as 7 or 2 when a (non-printed) income value is referenced for Summer Harvest during the round. 


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#3
FedericoFasullo

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Mh, I read that wrong. Interesting answer though. Thanks.

 

I hadn't planned to collect 5€ anyway XD



#4
Midspeed

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In this situation, since X on the Varys' Riddle doesn't refer to anything specifically, why/how can it be applied to the opponent's Summer Harvest?  Could I use that X value for something like The Thing We Do For Love as well?



#5
ktom

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No.

 

Summer Harvest does not say, "The X on Summer Harvest is ..."; i.e., the X in the "when revealed" ability on Summer Harvest doesn't actually refer to anything specifically, either. So, even when you initiate the ability on Summer Harvest directly, you are not dealing with a self-referential ability, and unless you are prepared to believe that this card ability defines the value for every X while it is the revealed plot card, there is no reason to believe that its ability refers to anything other than the X on the card itself.

 

Combine that with the fact that Varys' Riddle specifically says to initiate the "when revealed" ability on a plot card as if you had just revealed that plot card and you are left with the X applying to the printed X on the same card whose "when revealed" is being initiated. 

 

The only other interpretation would be that Varys' Riddle copies the ability of the other plot and therefore, the definition of X would apply to itself (i.e., nothing at all). This interpretation is not very convincing since you are initiating the "when revealed" on another plot, not copying the effects of a "when revealed" on another plot.



#6
Midspeed

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That makes sense.  Thanks.



#7
mplain

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@ktom It seems to me that this interpretation contradicts the one regarding Varys's Riddle + Power Behind the Throne.

 

Previously you said that if Varys's Riddle initiates the "when revealed" ability PBtT, then the card name "Power Behind the Throne" would not be self-referential, and thus the player who revealed the Riddle would have to put a stand token on any card in play named "Power Behind the Throne" - in case two of his opponents revealed in during the same turn in a multiplayer game.

 

However, if indeed Varys's Riddle initiates the "when revealed" ability of a plot as if you've just revealed that very plot, then in the above case the card name "Power Behind the Throne" in the text of the ''when revealed" ability should indeed be self-referential, and Varys's Riddle should put a stand token only on that same plot that it triggering. Isn't that so?



#8
ktom

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Nope.

 

The difference is that Summer Harvest does not refer to any card by name. Power Behind the Throne does.

 

When you initiate the "when revealed" of Power Behind the Throne with Varys' Riddle, you resolve that ability by placing a stand token on a card named "Power Behind the Throne." You are able to resolve this with any card having that title.

 

But there is nothing referring to a card title with Summer Harvest. As such, when you initiate the "when revealed" of Summer Harvest, with Varys' Riddle or without, you determine which "X" is being referred to in the "when revealed" ability not by card title (the way you do with the plot that gets the stand token with Power Behind the Throne), but by association of the ability itself - as a peripheral entity - to the game element with which it is associated. The ability remains associated with the card it is printed on, even though another card effect is what is allowing that ability to be initiated. As such, the "X" referred to in the ability is the one printed on the same card the ability is printed on.

 

If that is not the proper interpretation for determining which "X" Summer Harvest refers to, how is it that Summer Harvest cannot be used - independent of Varys' Riddle - to define any X that happens to be on the board when it is resolved (Harmen Uller, Mance Rayder, Raider from Pyke, Wolves of the North or Jhogo, for example)? There is nothing in the text of its ability that references the X printed on the plot - self-referential or otherwise. So association of the ability and the X to the same game element (in this case, the card Summer Harvest) must be the determining factor.



#9
mplain

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The difference is that Summer Harvest does not refer to any card by name. Power Behind the Throne does.

 

When you initiate the "when revealed" of Power Behind the Throne with Varys' Riddle, you resolve that ability by placing a stand token on a card named "Power Behind the Throne." You are able to resolve this with any card having that title.

 

But why? I don't see how this answers my question, it seems to just reinforce your statement that it works this way, without explanation. Your above reply focuses on Summer Harvest, while I'm actually asking about Power Behind the Throne.

 

I initiate the "when revealed" ability on my opponent's plot named "Power Behind the Throne" as if I've just revealed this same plot. This ability refers to a card name "Power Behind the Throne". Now, the entry for "Self-Referential Text" in the RRG states:

 

"When a card's ability text refers to its own title, it is referring to itself only, and not to other copies (by title) of the card."

 

PBtT's ability refers to its own title, and I am triggering this ability as if I've just revealed this one particular PBtT. Why is it not self-referential?


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#10
Khudzlin

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Actually, I don't see why you would be able to put a stand token on any other card than the PBtT whose when revealed you're initiating with Varys's Riddle, either. If the ability was copied, probably. But since it's initiated, the "self" is still the specified PBtT.


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#11
m1illion

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@ktom It seems to me that this interpretation contradicts the one regarding [
Previously you said that if Varys's Riddle initiates the "when revealed" ability PBtT, then the card name "Power Behind the Throne" would not be self-referential, and thus the player who revealed the Riddle would have to put a stand token on any card in play named "Power Behind the Throne" - in case two of his opponents revealed in during the same turn in a multiplayer game.

However, if indeed Varys's Riddle initiates the "when revealed" ability of a plot as if you've just revealed that very plot, then in the above case the card name "Power Behind the Throne" in the text of the ''when revealed" ability should indeed be self-referential, and Varys's Riddle should put a stand token only on that same plot that it triggering. Isn't that so?[/quote]



I think it is self referential and that is why the token goes on the only PBtT in play. You do not get a copy of your opponents plot card, you activate your opponents plot as if you had revealed it. So you are activating your opponents' plot, not activating a plot under your control.
If this is not true then OP's trick does not work because he would be setting the value for his own plot not resetting his opponents'.
Sorry I screwed up the quotes
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#12
Khudzlin

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Federico's trick is based on the fact that words like "you" and "opponent" are relative. There is no way he would change Varys's Riddle's income, because it's not variable. Since Federico is initiating Summer Harvest's When revealed as if he had just revealed it himself, "opponent" is relative to him, not to his opponent.



#13
ktom

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Khudzlin is correct that this all really comes down to whether the references on Summer Harvest/Power Behind the Throne are taken from the point of view of Varys' Riddle, or from the point of view of the card the "when revealed" effect being initiated by Varys' Riddle. That answer could go either way. My answers are probably colored by knowledge of how this situation/interaction worked in the past with 1.0 and the CCG, but there is no guarantee that it works the same way for 2.0.

 

I've sent the question of how references (self- and otherwise) work when Card A "initiates" the ability of Card B to FFG. It's Gencon time, so we can't expect a speedy answer, but I'm sure they will provide it.



#14
ktom

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✓  Best Answer

Looks like I was remembering/applying 1.0 logic to 2.0 cards:

 

 

The specific question deals with Varys' Riddle: ("When Revealed: Initiate the when revealed ability on a revealed non-Riddle plot card as if you had just revealed it.") When this resolves and you initiate the "when revealed" ability of another plot card, do the reference perspectives of the other plot card remain the same as they would for the plot card, or would they change?

 
For example, Power Behind the Throne ("When Revealed: Place 1 stand token on Power Behind the Throne.") When initiating the "native" plot ability, it is self-referential and the stand token must specifically be placed on that copy of the card. But when initiating the ability with Varys' Riddle, would the ability remain self-referential (and the stand token must be placed on that copy of Power Behind the Throne), or does it stop being self-referential - since you are resolving Varys' Riddle by initiating/resolving PBtT - thus allowing you to put the token on any card with the title "Power Behind the Throne."
 
A little more complex example would be Summer Harvest ("When Revealed: Choose an opponent. X is 2 higher than the printed gold value on that player's revealed plot card." - Spoiled in the Called to Arms article). The text of this ability doesn't actually make any specific reference to which "X" it refers to, so the assumption seems to be that it refers to the X on the card to which the ability is associated as a peripheral entity. But if this "when revealed" is initiated by Varys' Riddle, does "X" still refer to the income of Summer Harvest, does it refer to nothing at all because there is no X associated with Varys' Riddle, or are you able to choose any X currently on the board?
 
Much of the confusion is probably associated with what, exactly, is considered to be initiating and resolving when the ability on Card A specifically "initiates" the ability on Card B.
 
Thanks in advance

 

 

I think it is probably best to maintain that "the when revealed ability on card B” is what is resolving when determining reference points in both of these case. Put another way, the resolution of Card A (Varys’s Riddle) causes the initiation and resolution of Card B, and once Card B is resolving (as if you had just revealed it), you can effectively forget that card A was even involved.

 
So that: 
 
1) Using Varys’ Riddle to resolve a Power Behind the Throne means that the stand token must be placed on the exact card on which the Power Behind the Throne ability is printed. (It’s a self-referential ability that is resolving, so the self-referential rules apply.)
 
2) For Summer Harvest, the “X” being referred to is the “X” on the exact card on which the currently resolving Summer Harvest ability is printed. (It is worth noting that “as if you had just revealed it” in this example does change who is and is not an eligible target for “Choose an opponent.”) This will create a situation in which there are two conflicting lasting “X is 2 higher than...” abilities in effect, and the first player should determine which is used.
 
Nate French
Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

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#15
Khudzlin

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Nice getting an answer so fast.



#16
gramyotron

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Can someone please describe both scenarios for those two plots, step by step? I just cannot get it rigth from this explanation.

Thanks in advance.



#17
mplain

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Player A revelas Varys's Riddle.

Player B reveals Summer Harvest.

Player A wins initiative, chooses himself to be the first player, and chooses Summer Harvest to resolve first.

Player B triggers Summer Harvest, looks at his opponent's plot (Varys's Riddle), and defines X=5+2.

Player A triggers Varys's Riddle, and initiates the When Revealed ability on Summer Harvest as if he had just revealed it.

Player A triggers Summer Harvest (as if he controlled it), looks at his opponent's plot (Summer Harvest), and defines X=0+2 (because the printed value of X=0).

There are now two conflicting effects in place that define the X on Player B's Summer Harvest, one says X=7, the other one says X=2. The first player chooses the order in which they apply. Player A chooses X=7 to apply first, and then X=2 after that. The final result is that X on Player B's Summer Harvest is now 2.

 

If Player B ended up being the first player, he could apply the two effects in the opposite order, and end up with his Summer Harvest giving him 7 gold.


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#18
MuushusPork

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Player A revelas Varys's Riddle.

Player B reveals Summer Harvest.

Player A wins initiative, chooses himself to be the first player, and chooses Summer Harvest to resolve first.

Player B triggers Summer Harvest, looks at his opponent's plot (Varys's Riddle), and defines X=5+2.

Player A triggers Varys's Riddle, and initiates the When Revealed ability on Summer Harvest as if he had just revealed it.

Player A triggers Summer Harvest (as if he controlled it), looks at his opponent's plot (Summer Harvest), and defines X=0+2 (because the printed value of X=0).

There are now two conflicting effects in place that define the X on Player B's Summer Harvest, one says X=7, the other one says X=2. The first player chooses the order in which they apply. Player A chooses X=7 to apply first, and then X=2 after that. The final result is that X on Player B's Summer Harvest is now 2.

 

If Player B ended up being the first player, he could apply the two effects in the opposite order, and end up with his Summer Harvest giving him 7 gold.

 

Just to be sure, Player A will get how much gold in this scenario?



#19
bored2excess

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5

#20
mplain

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Just to be sure, Player A will get how much gold in this scenario?

 

5, as printed on Varys's Riddle, plus any modifiers from other cards in play.

 

This interaction will not modify anything about Varys's Riddle, it will only affect Summer Harvest.