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Brightwater Keep

Submitted Darksbane , Aug 22 2013 02:58 AM | Last updated Sep 04 2013 10:59 PM

Brightwater Keep Type: Location House: Baratheon Cost:1 Game Text: *Stronghold.* No attachments. Response: After a card is discarded from a player's hand, kneel Brightwater Keep to return that card to its owner's hand. Number: 2 Set: TBG Quantity: 3 Illustrator: Yoann Boissonnet
Recent Decks:	Baratheon Recurssion Melee Bara_NCDraw v2 Baratheon KOTHH Baratheon Initiative v2 For the public

33 Comments

UlrichVonLiechtenstein

Aug 23 2013 07:33 AM

Could you return Darkstar to its owner's hand with this,before he would be put into play?

VonWibble

Aug 23 2013 09:17 AM

I would say not, because he isn't discarded at all (the put in play replaces discard) and therefore nothing has happened to trigger the Keep. Very powerful card though - event recurrence is the main thing that springs to mind, for use on my own cards (plus protection against intrigue and confession), and on the enemy cards I can see it working well vs clansmen. Also, if that opponents discard makes you control the most cards and you know he has some powerful effect in play that hurts you for this you can prevent it.

Golladan

Aug 23 2013 09:18 AM

Before he would be put into play? No, because Darkstar's effect is a passive and those are triggered before normal responses.

Could you still return Darkstar to hand once it's time to trigger responses? I'm not sure, but I think the answer would also be no since Darkstar's passive is a replacement effect that replaces the card from being discarded to put into play. So I think Brightwater Keep would not recognize a card being discarded.

UlrichVonLiechtenstein

Aug 23 2013 10:13 AM

Makes sense.Still I agree that it is a strong card.

theCrow

Aug 23 2013 11:26 AM

since Darkstar's passive is a replacement effect that replaces the card from being discarded to put into play. So I think Brightwater Keep would not recognize a card being discarded.

I don't think that is how replacement effects work. As far as I know, you can trigger responses to character being killed, even if you have played Retreat (Core) or Call of the Three-Eyed Crow (AJE) and you can use Darkstar (PotS) to (successfully) pay for Maester of the Sun (ASoS) or Open Market (ASoS). Now, if you can't do those things, then a lot of people play those card incorrectly. But if you can, then by analogy Brightwater Keep would in fact be able to trigger after Darkstar is discarded.

Golladan

Aug 23 2013 11:44 AM

All of those are valid, though. Retreat and the Call doesn't change the fact that the character was killed. They just change the destination. And Open Market and the Maester will have fully resolved by the time passives kick in.

Like I said, I'm not sure if you can return him with the Keep or not. You likely can. Darkstar's replacement is probably only changing the destination, and not that he was discarded. Ktom is probably able to clarify it. But I'm leaning more towards this now.

Edit: Disregard what I said about the effect being fully resolved. The replacement effect kicks in immediatelly, not during the passives step. Either way, you still paid the cost of discarding a card even if the card doesnt end up in the discard pile.

theCrow

Aug 23 2013 12:02 PM

Either way, you still paid the cost of discarding a card even if the card doesnt end up in the discard pile.

...and that is my point. Since Darkstar's replacement effect doesn't change the fact, that he was discarded from a player's hand, then conditions to trigger the Keep are still met.

JCWamma

Aug 23 2013 12:42 PM

Pretty certain theCrow has the right of it here. Darkstar is considered discarded by the game, so there's no reason responses couldn't be triggered off that fact - this one included.

Vincu

Aug 23 2013 12:43 PM

You cannot take Darkstar back.
"If Darkstar would be discarded from your hand or deck, put him into play instead"
This is a replacement effect, and he never gets discarded.

JCWamma

Aug 23 2013 01:11 PM

You cannot take Darkstar back.
"If Darkstar would be discarded from your hand or deck, put him into play instead"
This is a replacement effect, and he never gets discarded.

This is wrong I'm afraid, because this game doesn't make sense. Ktom'd (post #5 specifically).

Vincu

Aug 23 2013 01:59 PM

I hate this game!

slothgodfather

Aug 23 2013 02:12 PM

It makes sense to me. If someone foolishly uses Penny (VD) against a Martel player they choose the "discard" option, and then put Darkstar (PotS) into play, I don't think anyone has said that the Martel player still needs to discard a card since Darkstar didn't count. He was a card, and he was discarded from hand. He just didn't end up in the usual destination.

Brightwater Keep does not say to return them "from the discard pile". It, in fact, doesn't care where the card ended up. Only that it was considered to have been discarded. Which it indeed has. So yea, this can return a Darkstar to hand.

Like others have mentioned, destination is not important, only the effect itself. The same way a char-genda is still considered to be killed when they become moribund:agenda. Just because they are going somewhere other than usual, doesn't mean they were not killed. So you can still play things like Blood for Blood (PotS).

- kizerman86 likes this

GameOfPwns

Aug 23 2013 03:12 PM

This + Fury + Lost Captain = standopolooza! (I think The King's Ground will also come back into style.)

Vincu

Aug 27 2013 07:26 AM

How does this work against 2-claim intrigue fights? Can I take back both of them?

JCWamma

Aug 27 2013 07:49 AM

No, you'd have to choose your preferred option. Well, you'd have the option of doing so, rather.

Vincu

Aug 27 2013 09:33 AM

So, each card is discarded separately, and i have to option, to respond to each of them separately, even is a 2-claim challenge?

JCWamma

Aug 27 2013 09:51 AM

You have the option to respond to each of them separately even if they're discarded in the same action, yes - be that 2 claim military, Rule by Decree, or whatever else. Only effects that say "discard your hand" (e.g. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken (TPoL), Narrow Escape (KotStorm)) would this not be eligible to be used with. Though keep in mind that, given that you have to kneel this location to trigger it, the opportunities to trigger it multiple times in the same response window are few and far between.

Vincu

Aug 27 2013 01:32 PM

Thanks, we played it this way, just wanted to be sure

cockbongo

Aug 30 2013 12:12 PM

So how would this work if you lost an INT challenge with Breaking and Entering (LotR) out and someone put into play something from your hand? Same as Darkstar? You can get it back from the table?

JCWamma

Aug 30 2013 12:34 PM

Don't see why you couldn't bounce the card in that instance. The only possible thing to make you doubt it is the phrase "would be", but given that's used in Darkstar too I don't think there's a reason it wouldn't work. More utility, hoorah!

cockbongo

Aug 30 2013 03:55 PM

Did you hear that noise? That was the sonic boom created by this card rushing so fast into my HoD Fury deck it broke the speed of sound. Oh yeah.

14Shirt

Aug 30 2013 06:27 PM

This card hauls so much ass it's not even funny.

14Shirt

Sep 30 2013 07:41 PM

Could this be used to pull back one of your discarded cards from the SoI (Kingsroad:Fire and Ice) agenda? Would it have to be the last card discarded? May be a silly question, and I realize you can control the order of the discards, but want to do it right.