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Card: Squiggoth Brute - all interactions

Squiggoth Brute

Best Answer Kaloo , 02 September 2016 - 09:53 PM

Ok, after 6 pages it looks like we're finally in a position to have a "best answer". Here it goes:
 

1:- Does it remove acquired keywords, such as from attachments or card effects?

Yes, since the text does not state "printed keywords"

 

 

2:- Does it remove all keywords gained after the combat phase has begun, even if it already had a copy of said keyword (such as Ranged on a Ratling Deadeye after being targeted by Preemptive Barrage)?
It removes exactly 1 instance of all keywords, irrespective of whether or not the unit had it at the beginning of the combat phase. Effectively, all keywords are treated as a modifier to which the Squiggoth applies "-1" to, meaning that should a unit acquire 2 instances of a keyword (such as a Ranged unit benefiting from a Preemptive Barrage) it would effectively lose 1 instance of the keyword, resulting in 1 instance remaining.

 

 

3:- Does it remove Area of Effect completely, or merely reduce it by one?

The Area of Effect keyword is removed in its entirety. However, should a unit benefit from multiple instances of Area of Effect, a single instance of Area of Effect is removed, but the numerical value of the Area of Effect remains the same.

 

Example 1: A Vicious Bloodletter (AoE (3)) is at the same planet as a Squiggoth. After the combat phase begins, it will lose the AoE keyword entirely, and as such will only be able to perform a conventional attack

Example 2: A Tactical Squad Cardinis (AoE(1)) with a Gun Drones attached (AoE(2)) has 2 instances of AoE, with an effective combined numerical value of 3 (as per the rules reference guide, AoE (1) + AoE (2) = AoE (3)). Following a Squiggoth, it now has 1 instance of AoE, with a numerical value of 3, effectively resulting in no mechanical change (it keeps AoE (3)). However, should there be 2 Squiggoths it would lose 2 instances of AoE, effectively resulting in the loss of the AoE keyword entirely, thereby limiting it to conventional attacks.

 

 

4:- Does it affect Specialisations, such as Unstoppable?

No, since specialisations are not keywords

 

 

5:- Does it prevent Deep Strike or Ambush?

No. Cards in reserve are not units until they are deep struck, and as such are not army units to lose their keyword at the point of the reaction firing. Similar, cards in hand are not army units at said planet, and as such are also not able to lose Ambush.

 

 

6:- Does it remove Mobile?

Yes, but it doesn't stop it happening. Given that the Reaction starts just after mobile has concluded any units with mobile can move before their keyword is removed, which in effect means that removing the keyword is pointless. Currently, it would only matter should Baharroth's attachment, The Shining Blade, be attached to a mobile army unit opposite a Brute since it would cause it to be discarded.

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113 replies to this topic

#1
Kaloo

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ffg_WHK18_51.jpg

 

Whilst the interaction between the Brute and Aunshi has been documented here, the remainder of the topic has a lot of additional questions asked that I feel will consistently come up again and again, and as such I thought I'd collate those thoughts into one post:

 

1:- Does it remove acquired keywords, such as from attachments or card effects?

Yes, since the text does not state "printed keywords"

2:- Does it remove all keywords gained after the combat phase has begun, even if it already had a copy of said keyword (such as Ranged on a Ratling Deadeye after being targetted by Preemptive Barrage)?
Yes, given the ruling on the Aun'shi thread linked above since any gain/loss of keywords recalculates the Reaction - See best answer

 

3:- Does it remove Area of Effect completely, or merely reduce it by one?

Given the answer to 2 is correct, it would remove Area of Effect completely - See best answer

 

4:- Does it affect Specialisations, such as Unstoppable?

No, since specialisations are not keywords

 

5:- Does it prevent Deep Strike or Ambush?

No. Cards in reserve are not units until they are deep struck, and as such are not army units to lose their keyword at the point of the reaction firing. Similar, cards in hand are not army units at said planet, and as such are also not able to lose Ambush.

 

6:- Does it remove Mobile?

Yes, but it doesn't stop it happening. Given that the Reaction starts just after mobile has concluded any units with mobile can move before their keyword is removed, which in effect means that removing the keyword is pointless. Currently, it would only matter should Baharroth's attachment, The Shining Blade, be attached to a mobile army unit opposite a Brute since it would cause it to be discarded.

 

 

 

If there's anything wrong with the answers I've given, or anything else that should be added to the list, feel free to let me know.


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#2
Intolerance

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How does 3 follow from 2?



#3
honorsadam

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So the other thread had a lot of discussion , what he meant is that if 2 is correct, than the logic in the discussion that supported 2 also supports 3.

Now I personally don't agree with the logic presented there, but there you go

#4
Kaloo

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The question is how Area is interpreted in the rules. Is AoE(2) = AoE(1) + AoE(1), or simply just a keyword in its own right? If it's simply a lone keyword, then it'll be removed without any issues. If it's a sum of AoE(1) keywords, then it would be removed in the same way multiple occurrences of other keywords would be removed, which is explained in point 2, hence my reasoning.



#5
Eiji

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For 1) and 2), Maybe change "remove" to "affect". It's true that it does remove one instance of Ranged, but A PB'ed Ratling Deadeye will still have Ranged.



#6
Stefan2581

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For 1) and 2), Maybe change "remove" to "affect". It's true that it does remove one instance of Ranged, but A PB'ed Ratling Deadeye will still have Ranged.

 

I agree with Eiji, Ranged will not be removed completely from Ratling with a Preemptive.

 

I suppose AoE as a keyword that "stacks" will be removed completely since additional keywords don't add additional instances of the keyword but rather contribute to the intensity. Otherwise there will be trouble how to recalculate it.


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#7
palpster

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This seems sonewhat hasty, particularly nr2. There has been no official ruling and there's a fair few people who do not agree with the way it's written here. I think we need to wait on confirmation from FFG to post anything definite on keywords gained after start of combat phase

#8
Stefan2581

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I have been asking ktom in the original thread . Still awaiting the answer.



#9
ktom

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#'s 2 and 3 are probably not correct. They wouldn't be in other LCGs, but we don't have a full answer from FFG specifically for Conquest. I have sent these questions to FFG, but don't expect an answer until after Gencon.

 

#2 is probably incorrect because keyword modifiers are probably handled in a "1 + 1 - 1 = 1" fashion (as they are in other LCGs), from which it follows that the Brute only removes 1 instance of each keyword, so a card with printed Ranged that lost Ranged from the Brute and gained it from Preemptive Barrage would have Ranged from a "1 (printed) - 1 (Brute) + 1 (PB) = 1" check for the keyword. Note that all the examples in the other thread involving Aun'shi assumed Tau units without a printed Armorbane. It could be different for Conquest, but I doubt it. 

 

#3 is trickier, especially given that #2 is probably incorrect, because the different LCGs do not handle "loses 'Keyword (X)'" effects as consistently as they handle non-variable keyword modifiers (which dictate the answer to #2). So we'll hold off on guessing at that one unit we hear from FFG.


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#10
Kaloo

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This seems sonewhat hasty, particularly nr2. There has been no official ruling and there's a fair few people who do not agree with the way it's written here. I think we need to wait on confirmation from FFG to post anything definite on keywords gained after start of combat phase

 

That's part of the reason I started the thread in the first place, because there's a lot of debate on this topic, hence the footnote in my post stating that I welcome feedback. Once we do get all of the points verified or are provided the correct answers to each, I'll reply to the thread with those correct answers so that the thread can be marked off as "answered"



#11
steinerp

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I just talked to brad at gencon. It works exactly like ktom described.
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#12
Khudzlin

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I just talked to brad at gencon. It works exactly like ktom described.

 

How does it work with Area Effect?



#13
ktom

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How does it work with Area Effect?

 

Yeah. The word from Brad confirms that the Brute takes away one instance of affected keywords, and that keyword modifiers are treated the same as modifiers for numerical values.

 

What is still pending is whether Brute takes away one instance of every keyword in the game, or just one instance of any keyword the enemy army units happen to have when it is triggered and, if the answer to that is "one instance of every," how does it interact with Area Effect (X) and different values of X.


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#14
steinerp

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One instance of every is what he said. As for AOE they decided but he couldn't remember. (Sorry for short posts on phone and tired)

#15
Khudzlin

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Sorry for short posts on phone and tired

 

Don't sweat it. We'll get the info eventually.



#16
eigensheep

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If a unit doesn't start with the Ranged keyword, say Iron Guard recruits,does it still lose one instance of Ranged?

#17
steinerp

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Yes

#18
eigensheep

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Ugh. Hope this turns out not to be the official ruling. Seems counterintuitive.

#19
Khudzlin

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Ugh. Hope this turns out not to be the official ruling. Seems counterintuitive.

 

Intuitive is relative (among other things, it depends on what you're used to, which might be different from what someone else is used to). This interpretation is consistent across all FFG games (so I do expect it to be the official answer): gaining or losing keywords is like numeric modifiers; it's just that, in addition to anything below 0 being treated as 0, anything over 1 is functionally identical to 1. That way, multiple effects that make cards gain or lose keywords function exactly the same regardless of the order they've been used.



#20
honorsadam

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its counter intuitive becase squigoth doesn't say " remove one instance of each keyword from enemy units" it says "remove all keywords" which would intuitively mean all instances on the card at the time.