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Card: Squiggoth Brute - all interactions

Squiggoth Brute

Best Answer Kaloo , 02 September 2016 - 09:53 PM

Ok, after 6 pages it looks like we're finally in a position to have a "best answer". Here it goes:
 

1:- Does it remove acquired keywords, such as from attachments or card effects?

Yes, since the text does not state "printed keywords"

 

 

2:- Does it remove all keywords gained after the combat phase has begun, even if it already had a copy of said keyword (such as Ranged on a Ratling Deadeye after being targeted by Preemptive Barrage)?
It removes exactly 1 instance of all keywords, irrespective of whether or not the unit had it at the beginning of the combat phase. Effectively, all keywords are treated as a modifier to which the Squiggoth applies "-1" to, meaning that should a unit acquire 2 instances of a keyword (such as a Ranged unit benefiting from a Preemptive Barrage) it would effectively lose 1 instance of the keyword, resulting in 1 instance remaining.

 

 

3:- Does it remove Area of Effect completely, or merely reduce it by one?

The Area of Effect keyword is removed in its entirety. However, should a unit benefit from multiple instances of Area of Effect, a single instance of Area of Effect is removed, but the numerical value of the Area of Effect remains the same.

 

Example 1: A Vicious Bloodletter (AoE (3)) is at the same planet as a Squiggoth. After the combat phase begins, it will lose the AoE keyword entirely, and as such will only be able to perform a conventional attack

Example 2: A Tactical Squad Cardinis (AoE(1)) with a Gun Drones attached (AoE(2)) has 2 instances of AoE, with an effective combined numerical value of 3 (as per the rules reference guide, AoE (1) + AoE (2) = AoE (3)). Following a Squiggoth, it now has 1 instance of AoE, with a numerical value of 3, effectively resulting in no mechanical change (it keeps AoE (3)). However, should there be 2 Squiggoths it would lose 2 instances of AoE, effectively resulting in the loss of the AoE keyword entirely, thereby limiting it to conventional attacks.

 

 

4:- Does it affect Specialisations, such as Unstoppable?

No, since specialisations are not keywords

 

 

5:- Does it prevent Deep Strike or Ambush?

No. Cards in reserve are not units until they are deep struck, and as such are not army units to lose their keyword at the point of the reaction firing. Similar, cards in hand are not army units at said planet, and as such are also not able to lose Ambush.

 

 

6:- Does it remove Mobile?

Yes, but it doesn't stop it happening. Given that the Reaction starts just after mobile has concluded any units with mobile can move before their keyword is removed, which in effect means that removing the keyword is pointless. Currently, it would only matter should Baharroth's attachment, The Shining Blade, be attached to a mobile army unit opposite a Brute since it would cause it to be discarded.

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113 replies to this topic

#101
Horatius

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like honorsadam said ... I had not upgraded when I answered and I haven't seen the more detailed reply of honorsadam.



#102
ktom

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Hmm. OK. I was reading "instance" in the response differently. If that's the way Brad says it works, that's the way Brad says it works.



#103
Kaloo

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Ok, I got a reply but I'm still a bit confused, I'm asking for clarifications. Kudos to Brad for answering so quickly though!

 

 

Edit: I'm waiting for a confirmation, but it most likely works like this:

If a unit has a single instance of AoE, it loses it completely no matter the value. If it has more instances (or, to be precise, at least one instance more than the number of Squiggoths at the planet) it retains the keyword and the values provided by the lost keywords still contribute to the total, leaving the unit unaffected in the end.

 

 

Ok, so just as a clarification point I'm assuming it works as Horatius mentioned:
 

If a unit has AoE(X) + AoE(Y) it would normally effectively gain AoE (X+Y).
If a Squiggoth is out it loses one "instance" of AoE but maintains the value (X+Y), and as such is effectively unaffected by the Squiggoth. If 2 Squiggoths are out then it loses the keyword completely.

.... that's a head-scratching ruling. It would make more sense in my eyes to block out either AoE (X) or AoE (Y) but whatever, as long as it's an official ruling I'll live with it


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#104
StingerMK2

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I actually kind of like the ruling on this one, feels very elligant to me.

On a slightly seperate note, are the only things currently known in the game that get around the -1 instance of area effect Gun Drones and Vha'shaelhur's sig attachment (if on an army unit)? If so i can't see this rulling causing too many problems
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#105
honorsadam

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.... that's a head-scratching ruling. It would make more sense in my eyes to block out either AoE (X) or AoE (Y) but whatever, as long as it's an official ruling I'll live with it

 

I take no blame for the head scratching....I have not been happy with the ruling for squiggoth since the begining. But yeah, its as official as its going to get until the FAQ update. 



#106
Eu8L1ch

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Brad was super quick in his reply, very kind and professional on his part.

 

This is what  I wrote after he explained to me how it worked:

"If the unit has a single instance of the keyword, the Brute cancels it, whatever its value.

If the unit has more than a single instance, the Brute cancels one but the remaining instance still grants it AOE. Then the values, including the removed instance, sum up leaving the AoE unit unaffected in the end. 
An example just to be sure: let's say a Tactical Squad Cardinis has Gun Drones attached (so that it gains Area of Effect 2 from the Gun Drones, in addition to its AoE 1) and is in front of a Squiggoth Brute.
The Brute cancels one instance (it doesn't matter which) but the Cardinis retains the keyword, so that the total adds up and it ends up with AoE 3."
 
To which he replied it is "exactly correct", so we have a confirmed official ruling.
He also mentioned it being a bit weird, but said (paraphrasing) it is consistent with how they're handling the rules for this game.
The leap to n+1 instances grant the keyword over n Squiggoth has not been made by Brad, but it seems to follow from the arithmetic nature of the keywords the way they're being handled.
 
Also, Ktom's interpretation seemed completely reasonable to me, but that's the official word, ladies and gents.
Could anyone confirm that StingerMK2 above is correct, i.e. that those are all the abilities that can grant a unit AoE? I can't remember any others right now.


#107
honorsadam

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a quick search through the database (lol, in the name site) shows he is correct, this is a very corner case, but really lets us dig into the details of the system. 

 

other cards grant area effect, but they have restrictions that make it so under the current card set there is no option to "stack" area effect at this point. 



#108
StingerMK2

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Blight grenades has the potential to but off the top of my head that is it

#109
Veetek

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There's also Brood Chamber, but it requires a specific opponent deck composition -and- the opponent to have both the Squiggoth and an AE unit at the same planet.


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#110
Kaloo

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✓  Best Answer

Ok, after 6 pages it looks like we're finally in a position to have a "best answer". Here it goes:
 

1:- Does it remove acquired keywords, such as from attachments or card effects?

Yes, since the text does not state "printed keywords"

 

 

2:- Does it remove all keywords gained after the combat phase has begun, even if it already had a copy of said keyword (such as Ranged on a Ratling Deadeye after being targeted by Preemptive Barrage)?
It removes exactly 1 instance of all keywords, irrespective of whether or not the unit had it at the beginning of the combat phase. Effectively, all keywords are treated as a modifier to which the Squiggoth applies "-1" to, meaning that should a unit acquire 2 instances of a keyword (such as a Ranged unit benefiting from a Preemptive Barrage) it would effectively lose 1 instance of the keyword, resulting in 1 instance remaining.

 

 

3:- Does it remove Area of Effect completely, or merely reduce it by one?

The Area of Effect keyword is removed in its entirety. However, should a unit benefit from multiple instances of Area of Effect, a single instance of Area of Effect is removed, but the numerical value of the Area of Effect remains the same.

 

Example 1: A Vicious Bloodletter (AoE (3)) is at the same planet as a Squiggoth. After the combat phase begins, it will lose the AoE keyword entirely, and as such will only be able to perform a conventional attack

Example 2: A Tactical Squad Cardinis (AoE(1)) with a Gun Drones attached (AoE(2)) has 2 instances of AoE, with an effective combined numerical value of 3 (as per the rules reference guide, AoE (1) + AoE (2) = AoE (3)). Following a Squiggoth, it now has 1 instance of AoE, with a numerical value of 3, effectively resulting in no mechanical change (it keeps AoE (3)). However, should there be 2 Squiggoths it would lose 2 instances of AoE, effectively resulting in the loss of the AoE keyword entirely, thereby limiting it to conventional attacks.

 

 

4:- Does it affect Specialisations, such as Unstoppable?

No, since specialisations are not keywords

 

 

5:- Does it prevent Deep Strike or Ambush?

No. Cards in reserve are not units until they are deep struck, and as such are not army units to lose their keyword at the point of the reaction firing. Similar, cards in hand are not army units at said planet, and as such are also not able to lose Ambush.

 

 

6:- Does it remove Mobile?

Yes, but it doesn't stop it happening. Given that the Reaction starts just after mobile has concluded any units with mobile can move before their keyword is removed, which in effect means that removing the keyword is pointless. Currently, it would only matter should Baharroth's attachment, The Shining Blade, be attached to a mobile army unit opposite a Brute since it would cause it to be discarded.


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#111
Kaloo

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Regarding when the AoE ruling would require multiple Squiggoths to prevent the units in question from being able to use AoE, I believe the list is as follows (regarding attachments, either multiple copies on the same unit or attaching them to a unit with a native AoE value would suffice, where applicable and able):

- Guns Drones

- Heavy Venom Cannon

- Brood Chamber

- Blight Grenades

- Predatory Instinct (Vha'shelleur's attachment)

 

Suffice to say, the list isn't that long so unless either Tau or a Biovore with a HVC are involved (the two most likely scenarios) it's unlikely to be an issue. Could become more interesting should we ever get, say, an event that gives all units at a planet AoE 1, for example, although that'll probably be broken if it costs anything less than 4.



#112
Kaloo

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Fun fact, according to the entry for "No attachments" in the RRG, anything that says "No X attachments" is considered to be an extension of the keyword. That means that the Squiggoth would remove "No Wargear attachments", for example, which would allow the opponent to ambush in, say, an Ion Rifle onto a Wildrider Vyper.

It would lose the attachment at the end of the phase, and is a really fringe case, but interesting nonetheless


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#113
honorsadam

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Props kaloo , I would not have considered that

#114
sharpobject

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Does it remove "Immune to power events"?

 

Yes: http://www.cardgamed...copying-immune/