Betrayal at the Wall

I know NIght's Watch and (maybe)Wildling's needed some help, but holy crap is this an overpowered plot. Nigh-guaranteed initiative AND the chance to see their plot before picking your own? Cannot be canceled is insult to injury; there should at least be a tiny amount of risk involved in something this powerful.

You say there should be risk involved, but where is the risk in Mels scheme, Baratheons care less about have characters discarded, wheres the risk in Negotiations especially for TLV players, there isnt one as replacing a hand of 1 for a hand of 8 in total after draw leaves them better off! I think this card is a much needed utility for nights watch/wildling who already have the disadvantage of having to get to 2+ extra power than the rest of us!

You say there should be risk involved, but where is the risk in Mels scheme

These two cards are not even comparable. There is a certain 'risk' involved every time you decide on whether to run or not to run certain plot card and that 'risk' is called 'opportunity cost'. So the risk in Melisandre's Scheme is that you decided to run it over, say, Wildfire Assault (Core) and you would really rather have Wildfire Assault during this particular game. On the other hand, the alternative to Betrayal at the Wall is nothing. There is a slight risk here as well, but no opportunity costs, i.e. there is absolutely no reason not to run it in NW / Wildling deck. I think I will even give it a shot in a Kindly Man deck with few Wildlings and Old Nan.

Touche Sir!!! I never thought of plots as having an opportunity cost! You make a fair arguement and i have to say i agree with you! As for the Kindly Man deck i would be very interested in seeing this decklist and how it fairs in Joust/Melee!

maybe (no, surely), I'm stupid, btui the full sense fo this card slips away from me. (from a player who plays only caual/with friends&family, and almsot only melee)
I see 2 options:
a) I have 2 wildling/nights watch cards
b)I have not.
With a) I choose a different plot - yes, after the other have chosen it, but there are other ways of ensuring this (f.e. Bran Stark (Core) or Citadel Law (MotA).
with I get 11 initiative. that is nice, but there are other plots with high initiative.
So what is the power? that there is no downside?
(Note afterward: this is ment as QUESTION, not as card criticism!)

With option A it is super strong for two reasons. 1 - you get to see your opponent's plot choice and can then flip into one to best counter it. and 2 - you likely win initiative, which is huge in many games. Often a game is decided on who won initiative on the last turn, not by the plot effect itself. With Bran and Citadel Law, if your opponent flips Valar, there is no opportunity to use those cards after your characters are dead. With this plot, you still switch to a new plot even if your opponent does play Valar because it is within the same framework resolution.

With option B, see my 2nd reason from option A! Winning initiative can be HUGE on the deciding turn. And since this basically lets you add it to your plot deck for free there isn't really much disincentive to running it unless you are using a lot of City plots or a plot twist theme.

For melee, how often would you win the game if you just won initiative and could control how was first player - regardless of your plot income? ... granted, ALL your opponent's may be playing this plot as well... or maybe they are foolish enough to go for the gold and play Take Them by Surprise (LoW).


also... it is funny how how b ) auto-corrects into

First of all, you get 11 initiative no matter what. Because it seems like you think, that you only get to count 11 initiative if you don't have 2 wildling/night's watch characters. Initiative is counted once plot cards are revealed during framework action and then, even if you reveal a new plot card (by any means), the initiative won't be 're-counted'. Which means, that you can turn To the Spears! (PotS) stats into 3/11/1 (or any other plot into x/11/y).
Secondly plot manipulation is a very powerful tool. You named Bran and Citadel Law and I think there are no other reasonable ways to reveal new plot card during plot phase. So it's not like it was very common. And furthermore - Betrayal at the Wall has a twofold advantage over those two cards:
1) It is a plot card (that cannot be cancelled on top of everything). It's pretty much guaranteed (The Art of Seduction (LotR) excluded) that you will be able to flip it anytime you want. With Bran you have to draw and marshall him first, and then keep him alive until the plot phase.
2) It's ability to reveal a new plot card is a 'when revealed'. So if your opponent reveals a 'when revealed' it will resovle first, and then you will be able to reveal a new plot card with Bran or Citadel Law during player actions window. With Betrayal at the Wall you can reveal e.g. Outwit (TIoR), before your opponent's 'when revealed' resolves to cancel his plot.

Really hoping to see Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun in this cycle!

I really like the "cannot be cancelled". Very nice plot!

Initiative is counted once plot cards are revealed during framework action and then, even if you reveal a new plot card (by any means), the initiative won't be 're-counted'.

Ok?!^^ then that was what confused me. I thought initiative is counted after all revealed effects (including this one) are resolved. thanks for that info, can quite change the game at some points.

if Jon Snow (THTW) is in play, i take it he on his own forfils the criteria for the 2 characters? or would the word 'or' take precedence and you could only could one type or the other?

Jon is still only a single character, regardless of how many traits he has so he can only account for 1 character.

I'm pretty sure that the card is functionally read as "2 or more wildlings or 2 or more Night's watch..."

To me it seems like this card should be more or less included in every deck. Why not? It is essentially an extra free plot. Every once in a while you really need initiative. This gives you a great opportunity to win that. You can keep all of your other plots as they are. The only downside would be if you have to cycle your plots then you have to play it. How many games go to an 8th round though?

How many games go to an 8th round though?

Control vs Control can do this fairly often actually. But I agree, this will likely be added to a large number of decks regardless of any trait synergy.

This is a Gorgeus card, I hope that wildlings and Night's Watch improve a little their possibilities, starting from this...

I think this is a fantastic card, if not for the super great effect it offers for a nights watch/wildling deck, simply having this card almost guarantees you initiative. Plus it allows for an extra plot. In my opinion, the more plot options you have, the better. I wouldn't be too surprised if this was errata or restricted.

Question...

Say I flip this, and I have the Characters to flip a new plot and my opponent flips Art of Seduction...

Art of Seduction would trump this right?

The Art of Seduction (LotR)

"plot phase next round".

Your good this turn. Not next.

If they pick The Art of Seduction (LotR) that is ideal, it'll let you decide what you want for 2 rounds in a row!

huh?

That won't work as the choice of plot card only works when this is revealed. Art of Seduction doesn't let you reveal a card next round, therefore no when revealed effect. You will be stuck at 11 initiative (not so bad!) and 1 gold (very bad).

Assuming the scenario is this: during the standard plot phase FAW, Player 1 reveals Art of Seduction and Player 2 reveals Betrayal. Assuming player 2 has the required characters in play to activate the effect, they can immediately switch into a new plot (after first player is determined). Whatever plot Player B picks right then will be their plot for that round and the next. (unless they change it before then with other plot rotating effects).

If your opponent plays AoS against this plot, it does make it ideal for you, as you can pick whatever plot you would like to be stuck with.

Question. If I were to flip this, meet the criteria to reveal another plot, then reveal Outwit (TIoR). Would I be able to cancel my opp 'when revealed' effect, or would their effect take place after i chose to reveal a new plot? I ask because Outwit is not a when revealed effect, but rather a response.

I think it depends on the order of resolution. In order for that to work, you have to pick Betrayal's "when revealed" to go off before the other plot. Then the order would be: Betrayal-->flip new plot-->other "when revealed"-->cancel with Outwit.

Jon is still only a single character, regardless of how many traits he has so he can only account for 1 character.

I'm pretty sure that the card is functionally read as "2 or more wildlings or 2 or more Night's watch..."

Does it mean that's not possible to have 2 characters, 1 wildling and 1 night's watch?