You can play it essentially for free and gives you a ressource advantage starting the next turn, no more than 2 per deck since it unique in play and has no shields but a decent card.

if u get it turn 1 its great... as more turns pass it gets almost useless with no shields xD 

if u get it turn 1 its great... as more turns pass it gets almost useless with no shields xD 

I don't think you need this on turn 1 for it to be useful.  It pays for itself the turn you play it.  So, as long as you don't play it on the very last turn of the game you get a profit from it.

The point isn't that it'll "do nothing" unless you get it early - the point is that it won't justify being included in the deck in favor of some other (presumably good) card unless it shows up early.

Yes, if you draw it in your last turn, then you'll probably play it anyways, if nothing else because it allows you to "stall" your next deploy and doesn't cost you anything (although keeping it on hand to bluff that you have a shield/event can also be a thing). But if instead of this card you had included some card with instant power - an army, an event, something with shields, etc. - then you'd actually have a stronger turn instead, which is obviously better.

So we have to consider how much you can expect to get from it; if it "on average" (that is, when viewing lots of games and analyzing performance data) gives you enough to justify a card slot.

Obviously, doing that in a precise manner is kinda hard, but there are arguments against it; how it'll be practically worthless in many cases, how running more than one might increase its average performance but conversely put you in situations where you draw multiples (which are truly dead cards!), etc.

My conclusion so far is "Maybe 1, 0 if I need the deck space." This, of course, goes for all the other equivalents (Fortress of Madness, Front Line Launch Bay, etc. etc.).

I think this is a incredible card that you MUST at least include 2 in your deck if you have enough minions of the faction to justify. One extra resource uncontested (which is a important aspect of it) per turn for the whole game, is too good to pass up.

Even if this come turn 3, its still good. Sometimes it will be a dead card, but the number of times it will be awesome is too much. You must remember that you can mulligan and any hand that have this in the opening hand is a better hand.

I only run one. Multiples ends up dead too often. It's nice buut... you need to gain control of planets. Pirate/Trader/Survivalist are more important, I find.

I only run one. Multiples ends up dead too often. It's nice buut... you need to gain control of planets. Pirate/Trader/Survivalist are more important, I find.

This is fairly spot on. Capping control of a planet is worth on average +1/+1 every turn even without Pirate/Trader/Survivalist boosts, not to mention you can often choose the exact combination of cards and resources you desire.

Of course, fighting for capping is a thing, but this goes both ways - these "Cost Reducers" cannot be contested, but cannot contest either. Denying the opponent the rather sizeable benefits of capping a planet can be as good as getting benefits yourself!

The point isn't that it'll "do nothing" unless you get it early - the point is that it won't justify being included in the deck in favor of some other (presumably good) card unless it shows up early.

I agree with this statement.  There certainly are better cards and I'm not certain I would run more than 1 of these definitely not more than 2.  That being said, playing this card isn't useless if you don't get it turn 1, which was the point I was making.

This is fairly spot on. Capping control of a planet is worth on average +1/+1 every turn even without Pirate/Trader/Survivalist boosts, not to mention you can often choose the exact combination of cards and resources you desire.

 

Of course, fighting for capping is a thing, but this goes both ways - these "Cost Reducers" cannot be contested, but cannot contest either. Denying the opponent the rather sizeable benefits of capping a planet can be as good as getting benefits yourself!

There is another disadvantage to the Pirate/Trader/Survivalist issue.  You note that *on average*, planets are +1/+1.  However, I have played games where all of the 0 resource planets were in play at once, meaning that the available resources averaged out to 0.4 / planet.  Trader/Survivalist can only help you so much when no resource generating planets are available.  Mines and the cost reducers can be much more stable and consistent.

Although Trader/Survivalist both do offer one resource a turn, in addition to all other benefits.

Not only that, but if there are few resource generating planets, then surely your opponent, too, will feel the need to contest whichever there are, or fabricate some with their own capping cards. Counter-capping then becomes extremely precious; and this card, with all its untouchableness, is, as said earlier, also a non-toucher.

Of course, there is some value to cards like these in scenarios where both 1) you draw them early and 2) there is a terrible resource drought. I can not say I am well-versed enough to say for sure whether these situations are important enough to justify anything, but at the moment I'm leading towards other options.

Inexperienced at present, but I'm leaning towards x1 of your dominant faction if you're playing two factions with a heavy weighting towards one faction, x2 if you're running mono (though thats not especially feasible right now) and x0 if you're running two factions with close to a 50:50 split.

Practice is rapidly revealing to me that the right number of all these discounters, as far as core set + blackmane goes, is zero.

The cost of this card isn't nothing, even if you get the discount straight away. The cost is 1 card.

A thought experiment: presume you have the deck density of eligible units to make this playable every turn.

On the turn you play it, you're at -1C, +0R.

Each turn after that it improves by +1 R. So 2 turns in -1C, +1R, and so on.

The profit point, going by cards being better than resources, is at -1C, +2R: thats the third turn after you play it. Even then, the gain is marginal.

If you carry more than one copy, you run the risk of this balance getting even worse. Consider each duplicate drawn as an extra -1C cost. Draw a 2nd copy, and you need to be 5 turns of playing the first copy before it breaks even.

Therefore, to play this card, you have to know that the game is going to go on for at least 2 more turns after you play it.

Does this mean its great in the first turn? Yes: you still get 7R to spend on winning the command struggle, but you've essentially gotten a free "pass" on deploy, to give you strategic advantage.

So 2 copies is definitely a bad idea, but 1 copy? Well, its a tough one. Fact is, that when we're deckbuilding, any support card is going to take up a slot that could be Twisted Lab or Archon's Palace.

My advice: leave the discounters at home.

Later in the cycle we may see a viable DE deck that runs around cards like Calamity, Murder of Razorwings and Kabalite Half Blood. At that time, this card will likely be worthy of a x1 inclusion. Maybe.

Agree for the most part, and I would never play more than one.

Where I see some added value is in it using one deploy turn to get a better graps on the enemy positioning. The more you take to deploy your first unit (without passing, of course), the better.

Thats very true, and there is benefit in delay: thats one of the reasons why Promise to Glory is a great card despite essentially being -1C for +2R.

The math I mention doesn't demonstrate everything about a card of course: there's a tempo issue too, which is important, in that if you have this card out and are zeroed out on resources at the end of the turn you can still play 5 cost worth of stuff.

That factor often makes a x1 discounter a better pick for Chaos, whose best cards all come in at the 5 cost point, and whose Command Phase weakness does often mean they'll end a turn with 0 resources.

I think 1x of the discounter is a reasonable call, and one that suits some decks, sometimes. For me, I think the on-paper mathematical weakness of this card and the opportunity cost of the card slot make this is a non-include in most circumstances. For Dark Eldar in particular, there's a lot of quality low cost non-unit cards that compete for the slot.

Asklepios has the math. I think "mathly" too and I quote every consideration he made.

Furthermore, since DE chokes, I find this location pointless, since you will, at any time, prefer to deploy a 1-cost unit instead of a discounter. Net benefit is nothing compared to percentual benefit of resources.

It's limited, sice in direct conflict with Raid and Promotion (both played in choke builds). And it's unique too, preventing it to be played in 3x.

It has a reason to exist, however, and I feel it will have a place, one day or another (in more combat-oriented builds).

1-0x in any DE-based decks.

2/5

If you have a few Warleaders in your deck / hand , and this is in your HQ , then the Warleader can drop in for 3 since you are still ' deploying ' the unit ..

I think every faction should run 2 of their -1 cost supports !

Card only good if you play it in the beginning of the game since you need to use it for 3 turns to get some benefit from it. And even then it would be better to replace it with with 1 cost unit like pirate + to get more resources and cards from planets and don't give them to the enemy instead of discount which you may don't even use sometimes because of absence of units in the hand.

Just like Mines it's only seems that this card helping you - the truth is the opposite.

Unique and limited - so it stopping you from putting more than one of such card in the deck (you don't want useless cards in the hand), it can also prevent you from playing promotion and win a planet command struggle.
1/5 Garbage card.