204 replies to this topic

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Well, I said I would try and follow up Sparrowhawk's Dragon thread with a Lion thread when I was a little more recovered from GenCon, and while I can't promise I'm recovered enough to make a great first post, I might as well give it a try. Feel free to comment with your own ideas and opinions, including (or especially) if they contradict mine--we want as many ideas as possible bouncing around!

 

So, the Lion Clan. Why should you play (or not play) Lion?

 

Strengths

 

--Military Conflicts. The Lion are great at these, rivaled (or maybe surpassed, within specific parameters) by the Unicorn, but probably beating out anyone else in terms of specialization. This doesn't mean that other clans can't beat you militarily, but they will need to work harder, tech for it, or play to other strengths (such as attachment stacks for Dragon, or ring manipulation for Phoenix). This strength also helps you leverage certain neutral cards, like Fallen in Battle, more effectively than most. If you like your Samurai as mighty warriors, go Lion.

--Honor Victory. Probably the best clan in the core set meta for pursuing a secondary victory condition from Honor. You still want to focus on province victory, but stacking honor can give you beneficial side effects in addition to making you threaten an alternate win, through cards like Steadfast Samurai and Venerable Historian, which leverage being more honorable than your opponents.

--Numerical advantage. Lion have a lot of good, cheap characters, plus cards that key off filling the board. Their stronghold gets better the more characters attack at once, as do effects like Honored General's military buff. Options like Steadfast Samurai, Matsu Beiona, or For Greater Glory help you stay on the board during the fate phase despite focusing on building wide, so the in-built board reset of mono no aware doesn't hurt you as badly as it might.

--Province Refills. Lion have some of the few options in game to refill provinces face-up or flip cards face-up after refilling, such as Akodo Gunso and Staging Grounds. This ties in with and enables their numerical advantage, but also helps with cards like Charge!, which require options in your provinces to be more effective.

--Offensive Strength: Lion like to be attackers. Their stronghold supports it, For Greater Glory gives amazing rewards for breaking a province, Master of the Spear can give you unopposed attacks if your opponent undercommits, Strength in Numbers rewards huge assaults,  and so on. Absolutely defend where you need to, but where you can, attack, attack, attack.

 

Weaknesses

 

--Political Conflicts. Lion are in many ways the mirror of the Crane Clan, and where their reflection is strongest, they are weak. Lion don't have many Courtiers (four in core, all of them Dynasty characters), or political tricks. However, they do have a few, and some of those are real doozies. Lion's Pride Brawler can be great because most Courtiers will be vulnerable to being bowed by her high military skill--a skill which can be boosted by some Lion effects, even outside military conflicts (Honored General comes to mind, and if his Reaction hasn't been undone by dishonor, he's not a slouch politically with 2 Glory boosting him). Ikoma Eiji can also turn political losses into tempo by returning discarded Bushi to play for military retaliation, but even with all this, the Lion are not exactly political powerhouses. Actions, not words, define the Lion.

--Honor-dependent. The flipside of the Lion's ability to draw strength from a high honor is how vulnerable they are to losing it. Suddenly your Steadfast Samurai need fate to stay around, your Obstinate Recruits might get discarded, and you can't trigger important abilities. Some foes, like Crab or Scorpion, will never be more honorable than you, outside rare edge cases, but they can still hurt you by lowering your margin for effects than require a certain lead, and Scorpion can stay in the game much longer with a Lion to consistently steal honor from.

--Low Conflict Draw. Since Lion are so honor-dependent, you will typically want to bid low in the Draw Phase, to avoid the risk of losing your lead. Some Lion cards, like the Art of War, Kitsu Spiritcaller, or Guidance of the Ancestors can help out with additional cards or with recursion, however. Consider Fertile Fields for your air province as well.

--Slow Dynasty Phase. Whoever ends their dynasty phase first gets an economic advantage, and well, that's not typically going to be the Lion. Building wide means playing lots of characters from your provinces, which can prevent you from claiming that extra fate.

--Defensive Vulnerability: Lion are not nearly as strong on defense as offense, although in military conflicts, they can still be quite strong defenders, even triggering ring effects there with the help of the Clan Champion, Akodo Toturi. Defense will be harder fought than offense, though, and political defense might get very rough indeed. Try leveraging options like the Art of War or Vengeful Oathbreaker to turn your defensive losses into tempo, and don't waste too many resources on defenses you are unlikely to pull off.
--Cards to Watch Out For: This section is going to be my weakest, as I am still looking over the card pool. However, beware of Dragon cards that punish numerical advantage, like Secluded Temple and Restoration of Balance (although For Greater Glory can help mitigate the former. Also keep an eye out for dishonor effects of all kinds. Crane can compete with you in the honor game more than most, and might dull your edge there, Crab can sometimes match your numbers, and anything that punishes low-cost cards, like Assassination, is going to have a wide range of targets to hit.

 

Current Role: Keeper of Earth

 

At the moment, Lion's role is that of Keeper of Earth. It won't matter for long, but it's a fairly good role even so. Earth ring conflicts help the clan with card advantage, one of the weaknesses I mentioned, and Keeper Initiate is very strong. the extra influence is also quite nice, although I could see Seeker of Earth also being good to double up on defensive provinces and free up more characters to attack.

 

Possible Allies

 

The main suggestion I've heard is Dragon, which is a very good one. Pacifism is a huge threat to Lion, so Let Go is tremendous. Ancestral attachments also help you boost characters who won't stick around long without losing cards. I could also see Crab, for Reprieve, Watch Commander, and maaaybe Levy. Unicorn boosts your already considerable military strength, although the best card there, Captive Audience, costs honor, and you don't really need the extra help. Crane can help your honor game and shore up political deficiencies, both of which are nice, and Steward of Law might be one of Lion's best splash options--cheap, flexible, and defends against a dangerous weakness.

 

First Deck Idea

 

Stronghold: Yojin no Shiro

 

Allied Clan: Dragon

 

Role: Keeper of Earth

 

Provinces:

Fertile Fields (Air)

The Art of War (Water)

Meditations on the Tao (Fire)

Ancestral Lands (Earth)

Shameful Display (Void)

 

Dynasty Deck:

 

3x Keeper Initiate

3x Obstinate Recruit

3x Ikoma Prodigy

3x Matsu Berserker

3x Steadfast Samurai

3x Akodo Gunso

2x Venerable Historian

3x Kitsu Spiritcaller

3x Lion's Pride Brawler

3x Matsu Beiona

3x Ikoma Eiji

3x Honored General

3x Akodo Toturi

2x Staging Grounds

Total Cards: 40

 

 

Conflict Deck:

 

3x Charge!

3x Fallen in Battle

3x Vengeful Oathkeeper

2x Master of the Spear

3x Guidance of the Ancestors

3x Honored Blade

2x Sashimono

3x Ready For Battle

3x Stand Your Ground

3x Way of the Lion

3x For Greater Glory

3x Strength in Numbers

3x Let Go (2 influence ea)

2x Ancestral Daisho (2 influence ea)

1x Kitsuik's Method (2 influence)

 

Sort of thrown together and not polished, but you get the idea.

 

EDIT: Sorry, hit post early.

Edited by RocketPropelledGrenade, 22 August 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[sparrowhawk]

Thanks for your musings above, Rocket. A good read and appreciated so soon after GenCon's brain frying.

 

I fear that, due to Kuroi Mori and no realistic Honour Victory out, Unicorn would be most consistent for Lion (I so dislike the build restrictions that province causes). I hope to be proved wrong there.

 

Keeper of Earth is not ideal (Air or Fire is better, I think) but it does allow for low bids to protect Honour advantage.

 

Here's my Weenie Swarm Fast Aggro build (reveal provinces for fast builds that race). It doesn't have Toturi as he's anti-synergy with Swarm (yes, Way of the Lion is Win More but view it as honour free Banzai). I prefer topping on swarm pump Generals (Charge + Stand Your Ground), relying on Brawlers (Lion's best card) and recursing Mystics (constantly), Generals and Brawlers with Spiritcallers.

 

Lion with Unicorn

Keeper of Earth

 

1x +2 Yojin no Shiro

1x 5 Ancestral Lands [e]

1x 4 Manicured Gardens [a]

1x 4 Night Raid [f]

1x 3 Shameful Display [v]

1x 3 Art of War [w]

 

3x 0 Obstinate Recruit [b]

3x 1 Ikoma Prodigy [c]

3x 1 Matsu Berserker [b]

3x 1 Steadfast Samurai [b]

3x 2 Akodo Gunso [b]

3x 2 Deathseeker [b]

3x 2 Venerable Historian [c]

3x 2 Miya Mystic [s]

3x 2 Keeper Initiate [m]

3x 3 Kitsu Spiritcaller [s]

3x 3 Lion's Pride Brawler [b,c]

1x 3 Matsu Beiona* [b]

3x 4 Honored General [b]

3x +1 Staging Ground

 

3x 1 Honoured Blade

3x 1 Guidance of the Ancestors

3x 1 Strength in Numbers

3x 1 For Greater Glory

3x 1 Rout

3x 1 Charge

3x 0 Stand Your Ground

3x 0 Vengeful Oathkeeper

3x 0 Captive Audience [9]

3x 0 Way of the Lion

3x 0 Fine Katana

3x 0 Ornate Fan

3x 0 Court Games

1x 0 Ready for Battle

 

Always scout in Politics first (Deathseeker ideal) before breaking in Military until you find a Fire province (bid low vs Dragon as Art of War can be undone by Restoration). Keep Guidance for Night Raid (anti-synergy with Keeper of Earth deterrent).

 

It's 2am here so I am too tired to explain some of my stranger choices. Sorry - I will try to find time tomorrow.

 

Kuroi Mori - the bane of unbalanced builds (as I discovered in one of my few practice proxy games).

[IuchiToshimo]

Lion naturally has more honored characters than any other faction, and the Crane event cancel is an utterly back-breaking play.

 

At least that's my experience.

[Silme]

I was asked to build heavy articles in french board about the two main archetypes from lion clan :

 

Lion players were in difficulty and asking a lot of questions about deckbuild : at first super swarm seems so strong, lion opponents ask for help. Than, after some games lion super swarm is very easy to destroy and lion players are asking for help to jump to next level...

 

- super swarm : http://l5ajce.foruma...keeper-of-earth

- allstar toolbox : http://l5ajce.foruma...keeper-of-earth

 

 

 

All in french but i can help here... it help a lot to play both a lot at first to learn lion's strenghts (amplified a lot in super swarm) than how to lower his powerful weaknesses and make a more competitive deck (in allstar). once you master both you are ready to build something more of your liking... an hybrid let's say

[RaistlinTN1]

Well i have been playing Lion for a week (like 10 games more or less) so i think i could contribute to this topic with the feelings that i've got from these games.

 

I wiil quote the previous posts

 

Well, I said I would try and follow up Sparrowhawk's Dragon thread with a Lion thread when I was a little more recovered from GenCon, and while I can't promise I'm recovered enough to make a great first post, I might as well give it a try. Feel free to comment with your own ideas and opinions, including (or especially) if they contradict mine--we want as many ideas as possible bouncing around!

 

So, the Lion Clan. Why should you play (or not play) Lion?

 

Strengths

 

--Military Conflicts. The Lion are great at these, rivaled (or maybe surpassed, within specific parameters) by the Unicorn, but probably beating out anyone else in terms of specialization. This doesn't mean that other clans can't beat you militarily, but they will need to work harder, tech for it, or play to other strengths (such as attachment stacks for Dragon, or ring manipulation for Phoenix). This strength also helps you leverage certain neutral cards, like Fallen in Battle, more effectively than most. If you like your Samurai as mighty warriors, go Lion.

--Honor Victory. Probably the best clan in the core set meta for pursuing a secondary victory condition from Honor. You still want to focus on province victory, but stacking honor can give you beneficial side effects in addition to making you threaten an alternate win, through cards like Steadfast Samurai and Venerable Historian, which leverage being more honorable than your opponents.

--Numerical advantage. Lion have a lot of good, cheap characters, plus cards that key off filling the board. Their stronghold gets better the more characters attack at once, as do effects like Honored General's military buff. Options like Steadfast Samurai, Matsu Beiona, or For Greater Glory help you stay on the board during the fate phase despite focusing on building wide, so the in-built board reset of mono no aware doesn't hurt you as badly as it might.

--Province Refills. Lion have some of the few options in game to refill provinces face-up or flip cards face-up after refilling, such as Akodo Gunso and Staging Grounds. This ties in with and enables their numerical advantage, but also helps with cards like Charge!, which require options in your provinces to be more effective.

--Offensive Strength: Lion like to be attackers. Their stronghold supports it, For Greater Glory gives amazing rewards for breaking a province, Master of the Spear can give you unopposed attacks if your opponent undercommits, Strength in Numbers rewards huge assaults,  and so on. Absolutely defend where you need to, but where you can, attack, attack, attack.

 

About the honor victory i have found almost imposible to trigger. I do not know if with a deck totally focused on honor victory could be achieved. But i think that need to draw 1 for at least 3 turns, turning into a 9-12 card disadvantage, and this will cost you the game almost for sure. In addition the only card that benefits for a huge honor advantage is the Steadfast Samurais who is only a 1/1 and requires a lot of attention to maintain him on board

 

With the rest of the advantages i could not agree more.

 

 

 

Weaknesses

 

--Political Conflicts. Lion are in many ways the mirror of the Crane Clan, and where their reflection is strongest, they are weak. Lion don't have many Courtiers (four in core, all of them Dynasty characters), or political tricks. However, they do have a few, and some of those are real doozies. Lion's Pride Brawler can be great because most Courtiers will be vulnerable to being bowed by her high military skill--a skill which can be boosted by some Lion effects, even outside military conflicts (Honored General comes to mind, and if his Reaction hasn't been undone by dishonor, he's not a slouch politically with 2 Glory boosting him). Ikoma Eiji can also turn political losses into tempo by returning discarded Bushi to play for military retaliation, but even with all this, the Lion are not exactly political powerhouses. Actions, not words, define the Lion.

--Honor-dependent. The flipside of the Lion's ability to draw strength from a high honor is how vulnerable they are to losing it. Suddenly your Steadfast Samurai need fate to stay around, your Obstinate Recruits might get discarded, and you can't trigger important abilities. Some foes, like Crab or Scorpion, will never be more honorable than you, outside rare edge cases, but they can still hurt you by lowering your margin for effects than require a certain lead, and Scorpion can stay in the game much longer with a Lion to consistently steal honor from.

--Low Conflict Draw. Since Lion are so honor-dependent, you will typically want to bid low in the Draw Phase, to avoid the risk of losing your lead. Some Lion cards, like the Art of War, Kitsu Spiritcaller, or Guidance of the Ancestors can help out with additional cards or with recursion, however. Consider Fertile Fields for your air province as well.

--Slow Dynasty Phase. Whoever ends their dynasty phase first gets an economic advantage, and well, that's not typically going to be the Lion. Building wide means playing lots of characters from your provinces, which can prevent you from claiming that extra fate.

--Defensive Vulnerability: Lion are not nearly as strong on defense as offense, although in military conflicts, they can still be quite strong defenders, even triggering ring effects there with the help of the Clan Champion, Akodo Toturi. Defense will be harder fought than offense, though, and political defense might get very rough indeed. Try leveraging options like the Art of War or Vengeful Oathbreaker to turn your defensive losses into tempo, and don't waste too many resources on defenses you are unlikely to pull off.
--Cards to Watch Out For: This section is going to be my weakest, as I am still looking over the card pool. However, beware of Dragon cards that punish numerical advantage, like Secluded Temple and Restoration of Balance (although For Greater Glory can help mitigate the former. Also keep an eye out for dishonor effects of all kinds. Crane can compete with you in the honor game more than most, and might dull your edge there, Crab can sometimes match your numbers, and anything that punishes low-cost cards, like Assassination, is going to have a wide range of targets to hit.

 

In the weakness maybe beacuse i'm using a type of deck that not focuses on honor victories i have found that my deck is not so honor dependant in fact i have won many games being less honorable than my opponent. This not means that watching honor is not important ( and you should try to gain honor for any means available) but if you do not have and Obstinate recuit or an non honored Venerable Historian in the board you could perfectly bid 5 even if it cost you became less honored. 

 

Abour Cards to Watch Out for: I will  add any of the event countes that Crane or Scorpions have. If they stops your Toturi Charge or your For greater Glory they could totally ruin your plans. I will like to remark that Assasination is a huge threat beacuse some of your 2 or less cost cards are really good, so even if is very tempting you should avoid place fate or atachments in these characters.

 

I agree with the rest of the weaknesses

 

- For the alliances i'm currently using Dragon. Let go for the attachments like Pacifism and Miyamoto's Fury to stop some early lone attacks that could break an undefended province. I agree that Unicorn is a really good ally too, alhtough apart from Captive Audience I did not see any other card worth including. I also recomend Crane due to Voice of Honor (mainly to counter the counters) ,Steward of Law to include For shame for conflict bow and maybe Political rival could (if protected) stop a political agression in its tracks.

 

- The last thing i have noticed is that you should discard almost always the cards that you have in your provinces at the end of the turn. Unless you are sure that are going to need this card the following turn is going to make a better service in your discard pile, given the reccuring tools that we have in our arsenal.

 

PS: I want to apologize for every grammar or spelling mistake that i'm making. English is not my first language and i do not have a text corrector in hand

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Thanks for the detailed response and thoughts, Raistlin! As I play more and think more, I think you are probably right about whether an honor/dishonor victory is really all that viable, but I do wonder whether the threat of such a victory is worth pursuing as a way to limit opponent behavior. I posted a decklist built around the idea recently (although I'm not at all sold on anything more than the general shape of it), which uses a Crab alliance, primarily for Watch Commander as a way to limit the impact of the opponent's card advantage. I can also definitely see the value in losing honor occasionally, although I would add that if you can build up a lead, throwing down assassination or a heavy bid every now and then might not actually cost you the overall status of more honorable for Obstinate Recruit and so on (although it would almost certainly cost you Steadfast Samurai's ability).

[estyles]

Question: How do people feel about Deathseeker?  

 

On the one hand, his stats are not good for his cost, and you don't want to plan on losing conflicts on offense.  But on the other hand, he has a value in Political (which seems weird thematically), so you can send him as a lone 1 strength attack - if they don't defend and don't play any cards, you claim a ring and if they do defend and win, you cost them a character or a Fate on a character.  This might also allow you to reveal a province, minimize the hit from a Night Raid, or play something like Court Games in preparation for the next conflict, etc...  I dunno, I think he's good, but mostly in a side-effect sort of way....

[freemandas]

Question: How do people feel about Deathseeker?  

 

On the one hand, his stats are not good for his cost, and you don't want to plan on losing conflicts on offense.  But on the other hand, he has a value in Political (which seems weird thematically), so you can send him as a lone 1 strength attack - if they don't defend and don't play any cards, you claim a ring and if they do defend and win, you cost them a character or a Fate on a character.  This might also allow you to reveal a province, minimize the hit from a Night Raid, or play something like Court Games in preparation for the next conflict, etc...  I dunno, I think he's good, but mostly in a side-effect sort of way....

yea, I think you are right. The target of deathseeker is to lose conflcts, in this case POL. He is a scout that you use to look provinces and remove fate from the others.

[sparrowhawk]

Guidance of the Forum

I'm hoping to start a series of interactive posts where someone asks The Wisdom of the Forum for Guidance on a marginal card (nothing obviously good or bad) and the Forum obliges, be it based on theorycraft or anecdotal experience. You post the question in appropriate Clan thread (or a new Neutrals thread, I guess).

I shall appropriately start with Guidance of the Ancestors. What do people think of this attachment?

PROS
Constant threat once in the discards
Can be discarded to Night Raid, Restoration, Favoured Niece, Shoshuro Miyako etc
Not restricted
Key Political bump vs Crane Stronghold and Shoju
Spread bump useful with multi-conflict cards (Sashimo, Mountain Does Not Fall, Against the Waves, Indomitable Will etc)
Inefficient target for attachment removal

CONS
Just a +1 bump in any current conflict for 1F is very inefficient

It's a big strike against it. It's more eternal than Ancestral which attracts Let Go but it's so low impact often for its cost.

Currently they are in my deck but I'm starting to suspect they are actually a seed card for pitch and cycle cards like Favoured Niece.

"Oh great and wise Forum - I beseech thee to aid thy servant with Guidance on this matter."

[Hakkor]

I think pros and cons fit together. It's just a +1, so you don't want to have 3 in your hand. But the recursion is so nice you want to have it in your discard (without considering the rest of pros you mentioned, which are many). My conclusion is adding 1-2 copies. You will eventually draw it, but won't get clogged in your hand.

 

Maybe a middle way gray-ish answer is something like cheating?

[sparrowhawk]

I've been wanting to post on this thread for sometime and update the above build. That purist weenie swarm has a few fatal flaws.

 

Silme (who seems to be ahead of us on the learning curve, a playtester I assume) once detailed that exploration of Lion evolves from the obvious Swarm build into playing their Elites. Kingsley also referenced focusing high end. Early on, I was traumatised by losing with Lion (Crab) solely to a Kuroi Mori (although we were playing wrong, his Library on a broken province kept drawing him cards). But that build was very lopsided. I have decided a more balanced approach may overcome that home province.

 

So let's see how I have attempted "Lion Elites" and see if I am going to embarrass myself (again). Hopefully everyone in this forum has now progressed in (mostly theorycraft) understanding of the game and it will be a more credible build. (Aggro - I just don't get it.)

 

 

Clan: Lion (allied with Crab) - Elites no Honour focus

 

Stronghold:  

1x Yōjin no Shiro (Core Set #4)

 

Role:  

1x Keeper of Earth (Core Set #215A)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  

1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)

1x Fertile Fields (Core Set #18)

1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x The Art of War (Core Set #11)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (40)

3x Akodo Gunsō (Core Set #71)

3x Akodo Toturi (Core Set #79)

3x Deathseeker (Core Set #72)

3x Honored General (Core Set #77)

3x Ikoma Eiji (Core Set #78)

3x Ikoma Prodigy (Core Set #68)

3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)

3x Kitsu Spiritcaller (Core Set #74)

3x Lion’s Pride Brawler (Core Set #75)

3x Matsu Beiona (Core Set #76)

3x Matsu Berserker (Core Set #69)

3x Miya Mystic (Core Set #125)

1x Steadfast Samurai (Core Set #70)

3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

 

Conflict (40)  

3x Vengeful Oathkeeper (Core Set #160)

3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

3x Reprieve (Core Set #132)

3x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Charge! (Core Set #210)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

3x For Greater Glory (Core Set #168)

3x Good Omen (Core Set #208)

3x Ready for Battle (Core Set #165)

1x Rout (Core Set #213)

3x Stand Your Ground (Core Set #166)

3x The Mountain Does Not Fall (Core Set #138)

3x Way of the Lion (Core Set #167)

 

 

Firstly, Keeper of Earth. I feel this is a very good role for Lion. I decided to continue the theme of drawing cards, discarding opponent's cards. With only 10 conflict cards costing 1 and 30 costing 0, I felt Fertile Fields is superior to Manicured Garden and Storehouse better than Staging Ground (Elites mean less low cost swarm). Similarly, Night Raid over Meditations also promotes card advantage (and my Capital province vs military clans - when non-random discards hurts most with a smaller hand due to Earth ring). What Elites gain (unlike swarm) is it does not give up on the pass bonus which you can often claim as first player, especially as you don't have Staging Ground action delays (Stoic Gunso is a reaction).

 

My main issue with Obstinate Recruit is going second at game start, it auto-dies vs. 11 Honour clans who open Air Political (and a weenie with a drawback will never be recalled). Yes, it's good in a swarm build with Staging Grounds but it doesn't really work here. So then there is pressure to jettison Venerable Historian with its vulnerability to Court Games (as Lion often don't have the width in Political to escort it). So what happens if Lion entirely ditches the "must respect relative Honour" suite of their dynasty cards?

 

The game has a "what totals 7 with Fate longevity?" Cost Matrix.

Nevertheless, this is the dynasty cost curve:

3x +1 Storehouses (conflict deck = 30x cost 0, 10x cost 1)

7x   1 (Berserker, Prodigy, Samurai is 40th card as 1/1/1 Lion Bushi)

12x 2 (Gunso, Deathkeeper, Keeper Initiate, Miya Mystic)

9x   3 (Brawler, Spiritcaller, Beiona* often cheated in with +2F)

6x   4 (General, Eiji*)

3x   5 (Toturi*)

It looks top heavy but with Charge and recall, the ones you invest with as much Fate as you dare are Brawler, Spiritcaller and Eiji - the rest are constantly discarded and the weenies are there to give some width and Way of the Crab protection.

 

As for Conflict deck: I now feel Guidance of the Ancestors is too unfocused and low impact for inclusion. Free of Relative Honour (and gaining Honour via Honoured characters and Ikoma Prodigy), I dared 3x Assassination and 1x Rout (this could be x2 each). Ready for Battle x3 because there are plenty of bow effects to justify it (and because playing Mountain x3 - see below). Honoured General and Akodo Gunso justify Stand Your Ground x3 (also Charge Toturi in a Fire attack, Shameful Display, Court Games).

 

Good Omens x3 is very unusual but because there are no relative Honour dynasty cards, the opponent can card gorge (there is no Dishonour pressure like Watch Commander) hence this should be able to be triggered consistently as your card draw is already supported by holdings/provinces. Omens has more targets in Lion reanimator (Eiji, Charge but not Spiritcaller - where Reprieve works). Note: Good Omens is not limited to 1/round so you could suddenly switch your bids from 5 to 1 and play 2 of them on your cheated-in big guy.

 

The Mountain Does Not Fall x3 may surprise as Watch Commander may be more obvious. But the latter promotes low bids by opponent due to proximity to 0, relative Honour is not the focus and you also play Good Omens. Also cancel has 9 optimal targets in this event, For Greater Glory and Assassination (as well as 19 other events), competing for 3 cancels. It suits a high end build as you get more value out of repeat use of a big guy. Finally, the weakness of this event is bow but the build runs 3x Ready for Battle. Take part in +2 conflicts for 1C 1F? Yes please!

 

There is room for 1 Stoic Gunso to repeat recurse a Spiritcaller target (itself can be called back) but I like the 1F ceiling of the very cheap conflict deck, meaning you can (each turn) play a weenie, play an Elite with lots of fate and pass with 0-1F (50% pass bonus, fate on rings).

 

Now to test it against Kuroi Mori to demonstrate Lion don't need to go splash Unicorn...

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Quick question--you mention Charging Toturi in, but he's not in your decklist. Assuming that is an error, how many would you put him for (3x, I'm guessing, looking at your deckshape), and what would you cut for him?

[sparrowhawk]

Quick question--you mention Charging Toturi in, but he's not in your decklist. Assuming that is an error, how many would you put him for (3x, I'm guessing, looking at your deckshape), and what would you cut for him?

Thank you for spotting this. Doh! This is what you get for doing this at work. I am becoming particularly dizzy with the CGDB deck builder recently, I'm gonna have to check carefully from now on!

I've made changes to the post above to correct this oversight.

Strangely, the oversight has totally changed the build strategy. Having those extra 3 cards means you can simply jettison your relative Honour referencing Dynasty characters (not quite, there is 1x Samurai - I was tempted to make it 1x Ronin but chose a lower cost Bushi for Beiona, Eiji and For Greater Glory, a Lion for the General, but otherwise a blank text 1 for 1/1/1 in most games).

Hopefully the build makes more sense with the text now!

[GlaiveGuy]

I don't think there's a real need to choose between Elites and Swarms at this stage in the game. The Dynasty card pool is so limited that you're going to have most of the same basic cards.

 

I DO think that not being a slave to staying more honorable than your opponent opens a lot of doors as you're not stuck drawing only one card a turn. 

 

I also prefer pilgrimage to shameful display, it frees you up from comitting to defense, you just need a token dude there to keep the province breaking and they dont get to trigger a ring even if they win.

 

Honoring characters isn't terribly reliable so I usually skip on Stand Your Ground.

[Killcrazy]

I've been wanting to post on this thread for sometime and update the above build. That purist weenie swarm has a few fatal flaws.

 

Silme (who seems to be ahead of us on the learning curve, a playtester I assume) once detailed that exploration of Lion evolves from the obvious Swarm build into playing their Elites. Kingsley also referenced focusing high end. Early on, I was traumatised by losing with Lion (Crab) solely to a Kuroi Mori (although we were playing wrong, his Library on a broken province kept drawing him cards). But that build was very lopsided. I have decided a more balanced approach may overcome that home province.

 

Hey Sparrowhawk,

Just a question, why do you say his library should no longer draw cards on a broken province? My understanding is the attacker has the option to discard a dynasty card on a break but the province continues to refill as per normal after.

 

Is there a rule I missed somewhere?

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Hey Sparrowhawk,

Just a question, why do you say his library should no longer draw cards on a broken province? My understanding is the attacker has the option to discard a dynasty card on a break but the province continues to refill as per normal after.

 

Is there a rule I missed somewhere?

Face-up cards on a broken province are discarded late in the turn, I think in the regroup phase.

[Killcrazy]

Face-up cards on a broken province are discarded late in the turn, I think in the regroup phase.

 

Correct except that it's optional. Controlling player gets to decide to keep it or not. If not, it makes many holdings pretty bad.

[Asklepios]

Correct except that it's optional. Controlling player gets to decide to keep it or not. If not, it makes many holdings pretty bad.

 

p22 RRG.

 

A player must discard each faceup card from each his or her broken provinces,

 

I know, there's an "of" missing. That's as written in the rrg.

 

Also yeah, holdings are generally pretty bad.  3 per 40 max is my rule, outside of Crab.

[sparrowhawk]

Hey Sparrowhawk,
Just a question, why do you say his library should no longer draw cards on a broken province? My understanding is the attacker has the option to discard a dynasty card on a break but the province continues to refill as per normal after.

Is there a rule I missed somewhere?

See 5.3 on p22 of the RR: "each player must discard each face-up card from each of his broken provinces".

Unfortunately, this rule is not listed in the "broken provinces" section of the RR!

At the time my Lion quickly broke 3 provinces turns 1-3 then couldn't break Kuroi Mori. Meantime first 1 Library then a 2nd on broken provinces drew him back to victory from 3-1. Because we weren't discarding them at the end of each turn, I did think they were broken because I couldn't attack them to dislodge them either (like you do when you target a province with a dangerous card).

The RR for Conquest and Thrones 2 were edited by Patrick Brennan who was incredibly pedantic, a great rules reference and also helped to enthuse early Conquest with his moderation here. They were both excellent Rules References. The RR for L5R sadly has not achieved those same high standards.

[Asklepios]

I'd say I ninja'd you, but Hantei X declared there is no such thing.