55 replies to this topic

[GKZhukov]

I wouldn't use it in heavy card choke, since you never have any resources when you're effectively card choking (you go to draw heavy planets as part of the choke so usually generate way more cards than resources as a result). There are other DE play styles it is great in though.

[kenji]

Ok but with this previous posted deck I don't know how you can have more ressource than in a DE choke deck cause I play more command units.

[Kingsley]

I don't play Haemonculus Tormentor at 3x, but it's one of the only cards in the game that lets you use surplus resources to your advantage, and IMO a strong choke deck should be able to focus on either resources or cards depending on situational factors.

[kenji]

Yep I'm agree, you have a deck list to see yours?

[GKZhukov]

I'd argue the kind of situations in which a choke deck ends up focusing on resources > cards are the kind of niche situations when tormentor isn't likely to be a deal breaker anyway. I get the distinct impression that I'm playing my deck in a different way to a lot of people here though. But since it's been working out fine so far I guess I don't see that as a problem (yet).

 

Additionally if you are focusing on resources > cards you're much less likely to draw the Tormentor at the right time even if you include it, since low draw = high variance.

 

(I still think Tormentor is good, just not a choke deck card)

[Ruudo]

I am in the same boat with GKZhukov here, resource choke isnt a thing atm. And only happens rarely.

 

Cant really see a way to utilize a Tormentor in a DE/E deck atm.

90% of the time you just have tons of Cards and play with 4-5 resources per round, since focusing on card draw struggles is the way to go regarding choking oponent.

Total Cards: (50)

Warlord:
1x Packmaster Kith (Core Set)


Army Unit: (27)
4x Kith’s Khymeramasters (Core Set)
3x Baleful Mandrake (Core Set)
3x Incubus Warrior (Core Set)
3x Murder of Razorwings (Core Set)
3x Rogue Trader (Core Set)
3x Soaring Falcon (Core Set)
2x Syren Zythlex (Core Set)
3x Void Pirate (Core Set)
3x Wildrider Squadron (Core Set)

Attachment: (7)
1x Agonizer of Bren (Core Set)
3x Promotion (Core Set)
3x Suffering (Core Set)

Event: (13)
2x Pact of the Haemonculi (Core Set)
3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)
2x Doom (Core Set)
3x Raid (Core Set)
3x Superiority (Core Set)

Support: (3)
1x Khymera Den (Core Set)
2x Twisted Laboratory (Core Set)
 

 

This is what i am playing on local events atm, (Howl of Blackmane will be available in Greece in few days)

When howl becomes available i will change it to:

 

-1x Pirate

-1x Promotion

+2x Archon's Palace

 

Or keep the promotion and go with 51 cards.

[Kingsley]

What happens if your opponent is beating you on cards? I think being able to shift to resources is a good move. I also think Chaos may be a better alliance than Eldar here, though. DE suffer from not having any one-cost units with icons, and Eldar doesn't help there, while Chaos does. It also provides the strong two cost two command Chaos Fanatics, which IMO compare favorably to Soaring Falcon or Altansar Rangers. You do lose Superiority, but you gain command strength that helps you not lose those struggles in the first place.

[kenji]

I'm very curious to see your list, I never saw a DE/Chaos, you lose superiority, doom, wildrider, that seems a lot.

[GKZhukov]

I agree that Choke requires flexibility, however I also think it requires focus.

 

Choke works by focusing completely on shutting your opponent out of cards. this means going after all the card planets and making sure you secure them. Gaining cards yourself is a side-benefit as opposed to the end goal. Superiority is nice because of the flexibility, especially if you can't delay deploys enough to prevent your opponent dropping an extra icon on one of the card planets. Falcons are also nice for the repositioning option and survivability.

 

Resource choke is less effective much of the time since cards are generally worth more and with a hand full of cards your opponent still has options of how to use his few resources to best hurt you or wrest back command to undo the choke (much command is cheap and so cards > resources for sure here).

 

Flexibility comes in, because on occasion the card choke will fail. You simply don't draw into the hand or your opponent is playing some strong control themselves. Also your opponent may clock what you are doing and so not spread themselves out quite as much between resource and card planets.

 

This is where Ranged units are nice, as well as mobility (Wildrider is brilliant) as it gives you ways to challenge in combat even if the choke eventually comes unstuck. Wildrider & Ranged is also great for creating threat zones so that it becomes more dangerous for the opponent to use his Warlord deploy as a choke counter. The usual control cards (Terror, Doom) also add to the versatility of the deck, as of course does the potential Khymera swarm (which benefits from card choke anyway).

 

It's also where Resource choke as a secondary option has a little merit. You can flip around to try and control resource planets (especially if you've drawn expensive cards), but typically this is less effective. Only Raid helps outside of Command, additionally the beauty of card choke is limiting opposition versatility, increasing their variance, and of course it self-sustains. If your opponent draws 2 cards, there is no way they are deploying more than 2 units, and odds are they're deploying 1, maybe even 0. This makes it very hard for them to regain control. It also makes it very hard for them to screw combat maths. If your opponent ever reaches 0 cards, you have perfect information for the rest of the round.

 

I recently took my Choke to a Winter tournament. It was only a little one (8 players) so doesn't prove much, but nonetheless my games went briefly as follows.

 

1) vs. SM Win - Through versatility (my Ranged outdid him here, choke effect was minor - probably helped to limit the presence of too many SM combat tricks, but wasn't as full on as it could have been)

2) vs. DE Loss - Should have been a win as I knocked out his hand and dominated the board. I screwed up with Warlord deploy and we both agreed that's what lost it for me. He was a lovely player and had a nice deck, but the loss was entirely my own folly.

3) vs. SM Win - This was against the guy who won Rayleigh, but he used a different version of his deck. Here it was choke that won it for me, knocking out cards repeatedly and limiting his draw.

4) Semi-final vs DE - A rematch against the DE from before. Very tense opening, but once my choke got going I snowballed with command and Khymera Swarm so that it looked a lot less close than it really was.

5) Final vs Eldar - Here, I did in fact resource choke him in a very bizarre game. I chose to keep a slightly odd opening hand, and due to the presence of the 'fewer units' planet as Planet 1 I went with a Syren deploy mid-board and a Wildrider at Planet 1 (so he could either win it or move off and it be untriggerable). I then got some more command out before deploying a 2nd Wildrider a couple of turns later, which created a sandwich where his Warlord was scared to go. Somewhere in there he got stuck on 4-5 resources a turn, whilst I had about 10 I couldn't use due to drawing all my shield cards and a 2nd Syren. It was a really interesting game and I was pleased that it showed another side to my deck, with the mobile tricks that eventually led to a win. (Soaring Falcon was also very useful here).

 

http://www.cardgamed...ks/de-choke-r85 was the deck used

 

Anyway, like I say it's a tiny sample size, but to me Card Choke needs to be able to focus in on choking cards - a half-choke is rarely particularly effective. But within that having versatility in the deck so it can deal with various obstacles or create the perfect headache for the opponent (which might be Ranged, Mobile, Terror, Doom, Twisted Lab) is also really important. The beauty of card choke is you usually draw lots of cards yourself which means you are pretty likely to see the card-that-screws-over-this-particular-opponent-most at some point, whereas your opponent, shorn of cards, has significantly worse odds. Honestly mental card draw is as close as one can get to tutoring for a Khymera Den!

 

And if the Choke doesn't work - well if you've got enough combat tricks, and generated at least a bit of early draw to help find them, you may still stand a chance.

[Kingsley]

I haven't played DE since Blackmane came out, but the pre-Blackmane version of the deck is:

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com  Warhammer 40,000: Conquest Deckbuilder

 

 

Total Cards: (50)

 

Warlord: 

1x Packmaster Kith (Core Set) 

 

 

Army Unit: (28)

4x Kith’s Khymeramasters (Core Set)

3x Chaos Fanatics (Core Set)

3x Incubus Warrior (Core Set)

3x Murder of Razorwings (Core Set)

3x Rogue Trader (Core Set)

2x Soul Grinder (Core Set)

3x Splintered Path Acolyte (Core Set)

1x Syren Zythlex (Core Set)

3x Vile Raider (Core Set)

3x Void Pirate (Core Set)

 

Attachment: (6)

1x Agonizer of Bren (Core Set)

2x Promotion (Core Set)

3x Suffering (Core Set)

 

Event: (13)

2x Pact of the Haemonculi (Core Set)

3x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)

3x Promise of Glory (Core Set)

3x Raid (Core Set)

2x Warpstorm (Core Set)

 

Support: (3)

1x Khymera Den (Core Set)

2x Twisted Laboratory (Core Set)

[kenji]

Thanks man, so you don't have any haemonculus tormentor?

[Kingsley]

Not in DE/Chaos, though I would probably play it in DE/Eldar-- the Grinders are my resource sink instead.

[GKZhukov]

Not in DE/Chaos, though I would probably play it in DE/Eldar-- the Grinders are my resource sink instead.

 

Would you play both Tormentor and Wildriders, or are you not a fan of the Wildriders? For me they easily take the 4-cost slot.

[Kingsley]

I'd play both.

[GKZhukov]

Fair enough. I can't justify the resource sink (of both) in my deck, but I can totally see it being an option in a different style/approach.

[Koz]

I go three Wildriders and one lonely Tormentor.  Wildriders are just stupid good