Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

Search Articles

* * * * *

Reverse Engineering - The Elephant In The Room

Android: Netrunner Reverse Engineering Grimwalker

Hello, and welcome to Reverse Engineering, a blog about the deckbuilding that dare not speak its name. It’s a subject that raises a lot of ire, and one of my goals with these articles is to try and calm those waters, turn the subject in a productive direction, and learn whatever can be learned.

Know Your Role
I’ve seen it happen personally: Top tier players are truly innovative, coming up with new concepts and synergies that other players may not be prepared to counter, sometimes even that the designers of the game didn’t expect. Real trendsetters at that level are few, and I think everyone respects their process and would do that if they could.

Below that grandmaster level, we have a lot of competitive players who may not create brand new archetypes, but they know how to build strong decks and identify what cards will support their core mechanics. Journeymen players may struggle with from-scratch deckbuilding but can modify and pilot decks with reasonable skill. Lastly, there are casual and novice players who rely on preconstructed lists with little modification, if any.

I flatter myself to think that I can be competitive from time to time, but I’ve made some decks that just didn’t click. This blog will focus on experiences I’ve had and ideas I’m working on that will try and get me over that hump to the point where I don’t have to use so much of other people’s lists as starting points.

The False Continuum Fallacy
Let’s deal with the elephant in the room first of all. The word “netdecking” elicits a lot of strong reactions. Frankly, I think a lot more people do it than will own up to doing it, and I suspect that a lot of the controversy comes from cognitive dissonance. It’s okay. This is a safe space. I’m Grimwalker, and I netdeck.

The word means different things to different people. On the basic level, one can, “A,” just take an existing decklist, build that deck and you’re off to the races. Then there’s changing a little, a few cards, or more and more and more until “B,” where the deck is unrecognizable even to its original creator. This is the fallacy of the False Continuum: just because there isn’t a bright and clear dividing line between A and B, you can’t just say B is the same as A. People may mean anything on that spectrum when they say “netdecking.”

I think what people truly disdain is just off-the-shelf copying of a list. Someone sits down across from you with a deck that they just pulled off the internet, it’s kind of lame when your deck is something you’ve been working on and invested your own creativity in. I once tried to take the pulse of how much customization people think you need before you’re not committing that sin, and the responses I got were all over the map. Copying decklists verbatim is for newbies, and players with some pride resent the implication. And because there’s no agreement, no real border at which you’ve crossed from netdecking into respectable deckbuilding, it all gets tarred with the same brush.

Cognitive Dissonance
As if the controversy weren’t enough, I myself am of two minds on the subject. On one hand, I have a creative writing background, so the very notion of plagiarism is anathema to me. But, on the other hand, I’m also an amateur cook. And in that realm, there’s no shame in making someone else’s recipes if you can do it well—and quite a lot of expectation that if you’re going to go about making new creations, you need to start with the basics. I was in the shower last night thinking about this metaphor and I dreamed up a recipe for a Loaded Potato Soufflé, which I could never do if I hadn’t made several different classic soufflés from tried-and-true recipes.

So, that’s how I’m choosing to look at it. If I take a recipe from Food Network or Alton Brown and I can make a tasty dish, that’s entry level cooking. Being able to come up with my own variations on recipes, that’s still amateur, but it doesn’t mean I’m bad at it. Actually taking raw ingredients and knowing how the magic happens to come up with something new; that comes with a lot of practice. I’m a better cook than I am a deckbuilder, so we’ll see how it goes. (Don’t worry, this comparison ends here. I respect you all too much to turn the remainder into a torturous string of food puns and overextended metaphors.)

There is value in off-the-shelf netdecking. Learn the meta. If you play the decks you’re likely to face, you will increase the skills you have in reading your opponents, anticipating their moves, and knowing what they are less able to handle. If you hear about an Exile list or a Kit-Paintbrush thing or some crazy story about a frightening Project PsychoAres deck making the rounds, you don’t need to reinvent the wheel to find out how it ticks. Just play the bloody thing: nobody has the time to build everything from scratch or to comb through the OCTGN logs to count every card that hit the board and guess at the rest.

But that’s not primarily what this is about. We’re going to be reverse engineering, hence the title of the series. My goal—and I think what the goal of netdecking should be—is to become a better deckbuilder and player. To move up from that journeyman stage into being a true master of the game. Grand-masters are few, and that’s a bit outside my reach, but I have ambitions, and I’m not afraid to netdeck a few lists if they are fun to play or I see something I can customize. Maybe I change a lot. Maybe I change a little. But the important thing is that I’m not chasing some naïve belief that somebody else built a perfect deck and I’m going to somehow find and use THAT, or just stealing the decks that won the last tournament.

Twenty Minutes Into The Future
More than any other game I know of, Netrunner is a game of piloting skill as much or sometimes more than deckbuilding: so that being the case, if you’re a skilled player, then why not play a deck you built? Honestly, the goal of this article series is to one day stop writing this article series, or, if I’m to the point where I’m only netdecking to keep abreast of the meta, to help others to get past that stage of the learning curve themselves.

So, in conclusion, I’d like to just repeat the core concepts I’ll be coming back to in future editions: There’s more to netdecking than chasing the flavor of the month, and playing what wins just to get tournament swag. I like to win as much as the next guy, but I want to take pride in my work AND win. There’s more to netdecking than just copying and playing a list verbatim; it’s profitable to take decklists apart, put them back together, and make aftermarket modifications. When I say “I shamelessly netdeck,” I’m not talking about a brazen disregard for elitist concepts, I really mean, what I do with lists I find online is something that I don’t feel bad about. I hope you’ll agree, and we’ll learn some things.

We are blessed with a community of players who are extremely creative and love to show off what they’ve built. For what other reason could there be than to inspire others to take that list, share ideas, try it out, and learn new things? In the past couple of months, FFG has published sample decklists for Double Time, Honor & Profit Jinteki, and Honor & Profit Criminal, complete with spoiler images suitable, one imagines, for printing out, slipping into a card sleeve, and taking for a test drive. So let your hair down, leave your pride and judgments at the door, and let’s get better at the game.

Coming Next: “ATTACK OF THE CLONES” in which I report back after next month’s Chicago Regional, and the decks I played.

Grimwalker has been a middling player of Game of Thrones for a couple of years and has been playing Netrunner for almost a year, and if he could just make top 8 at a regional this year, he would be so happy.
  • Kennon, ajax013, SeanBecker and 12 others like this


22 Comments

Photo
Wh0isTh3D0ct0r
Apr 23 2014 05:56 PM
Well said, Grimwalker.
I don't do much netdecking myself, but my wife sometimes does because she often doesn't want to deal with the hassle of building a deck from scratch.

And I agree with you in that I, too, like to take pride not just in a win, but also in the deck that I create from scratch.

Most of my "netdecking" comes from a loss due to a new combo that I had not yet considered. I will either try to replicate that combo using my own flair, or I build a deck that can counter that meta.
I love your analogy with cooking to explain why netdecking is not "imoral" or "ugly". I think it fits perfectly. Great article. :)
Photo
CommissarFeesh
Apr 23 2014 06:47 PM
Nicely put. I will admit, I have a prejudice against straight-up Netdecking, which is probably neither justified nor sustainable. I guess when you work so hard at building something unique, and truly yours, only to have it fall flat and get demolished because someone else copied a tournament-winning list verbatim, it's disheartening. You feel cheated because you put in real effort at the design step, and they didn't.

But to use your cooking analogy again, if I decided that grape pizza sounded amazing on paper but tasted awful, can I really be mad at the guy who ordered pepperoni? (For the record, I have never tried grape on pizza, nor do I plan to ;) )

I'm currently working hard at making an Anarch deck which is competitive, and mine - but I'm certainly not above looking to other strong decks for inspiration, and to see what cards synergise well. Beyond that, I read a lot of strategy threads - if I pick up on a cool card combo or interaction from there, is that any different that lifting ideas from someone else's list? The line, as you say, is more than a little blurred.
I don't think netdecking is that big a deal in netrunner. It's still the player's skill that wins and loses games so who cares if they didn't come up with the deck themselves. Playing well is more important anyways.

I was playing a game against a newer player the other day and he was playing the Power Shutdown, AD into scorch deck. As we're playing all of a sudden he gets a big grin on his face and he asks me if I ran last turn. I said I did and he quickly shows me PS AD and JH from his hand and says "I win." I say, playing dumb, "play it out." He eye-rolls as if I didn't know what the combo did and so he Power Shuts down his entire deck, installs JH, returns a SEA source, and 2 Scorches to his deck and triumphantly plays AD. Of course in all of his excitement he forgot that he still needed to have more money then me to actually win the Source trace (which he didn't). So it doesn't matter if you simply netdeck the World Championship winner's deck. If you don't know how to play the game you're not getting very far anyways.
    • ajax013, DubiousYak and LeoLancer like this
To me, it's something like this:

Okay netdecking example:
-My wife doesn't like deckbuilding and would rather just play the game.

Bad netdecking example:
-Playing against someone who is more concerned with winning that anything else (like in a casual game). Uses whatever stuff just won Major Tournament X.
Photo
CommissarFeesh
Apr 23 2014 08:43 PM

I was playing a game against a newer player the other day and he was playing the Power Shutdown, AD into scorch deck. As we're playing all of a sudden he gets a big grin on his face and he asks me if I ran last turn. I said I did and he quickly shows me PS AD and JH from his hand and says "I win." I say, playing dumb, "play it out." He eye-rolls as if I didn't know what the combo did and so he Power Shuts down his entire deck, installs JH, returns a SEA source, and 2 Scorches to his deck and triumphantly plays AD. Of course in all of his excitement he forgot that he still needed to have more money then me to actually win the Source trace (which he didn't).


Had a similar experience recently. Opponent already had J-How installed and drew the SEA/AD. Flipped his deck, put 3x Scorch back in R&D, then realised I hadn't made a SUCESSFUL run. He actually realised the mistake himself, and conceded :P
You search for inspiration anywhere you can get it. Nowadays information is not only more broad it's also more easily accessed. I believe that netdecking won't pose a lot of harm, as a player who doesn't know the sinergies and quirks of piloting a deck will play awfully, make a lot of mistakes and feel bad for it. Deckbuilding is an art, but that doesn't mean you have to start on the stone age.
The way I see it, to netdeck profitably is to combine your ideas with others, as long as your core idea stays true, you'll end up with your own list, that maybe had a good sinergy you didn't knew it worked on some archetype.
But in the end, making your own deck has a lot of advantages in Netrunner, since, as it is a game of hidden information, if you're running something everyone kinda knows how it works you get countered so easily it's embarassing.
    • Grimwalker, Hraklea, Riwaine and 1 other like this
I don't mind net decking but I don't practice it myself. The reason I like this game so much is because I can build and customize my own deck and watch it fail miserably ;)
    • ajax013, Yoshuriken and VoltRon like this

Bad netdecking example:
-Playing against someone who is more concerned with winning that anything else. Uses whatever list just won Major Tournament X.


Decks don't win tournaments by themselves. If someone won a major tournament, saying that the player only won due netdecking is naive. The odds are that the winner is a better player than most people there.
Photo
syntaxerror111
Apr 24 2014 02:22 AM
Another issue with trying to be a competitive while netdecking a tournament list, is that the top players make many design decisions based on the current state of the meta they expect to encounter. While the deck may be strong, it may not be the best choice for what you will be facing in your meta.

Player skill has already been talked about quite extensively, and I definitely. agree
I'm all in favor of netdecking. I don't think it's bad at all. Many of my decks I copy from interesting lists I find on the internet. I often change a card or two, or try to put my own spin on it, but the core concept is something someone else came up with.
I generally dislike 'straight' netdecking but I sometimes use them as a starting point for one of my own decks or modify one of my decks after seeing a neat combo that would fit right in.
    • ajax013 and Hraklea like this
You guys are a much more collegial crowd than the folks on ANR Facebook communities. The whole impetus for the articles was that you couldn't ask a simple question without it blowing up.

Thanks for the kind words; issue 2 is already in progress :)
    • ajax013 and fourhorsemen like this
Photo
thewestwinds
Apr 24 2014 05:35 PM
I like to look at a deck list, think about it, try and figure out why it works, and then the next day build a deck with those ideas, but not actually look at the list. It is hard (if not impossible) to play the game without any outside influence in your deckbuilding, but I figure this way, I can learn new concepts, without playing someone else's deck. It's more akin to paraphrasing than plagiarism :)
    • ajax013 and Yoshuriken like this

I guess when you work so hard at building something unique, and truly yours, only to have it fall flat and get demolished because someone else copied a tournament-winning list verbatim, it's disheartening. You feel cheated because you put in real effort at the design step, and they didn't.


For me, an integral part of the design process for each of my decks is the step where I playtest against the currently popular, strong choices.

So, when someone sits down and plays a copied deck, I'm like "easy mode, sucker - I've played 50 hours of this exact matchup".

Someone pulling out some sort of weirdness I'm actually unfamiliar with is much worse - I only have the space of one game to both figure out what the hell he's up to and come up with the best counterplay option and actually pull it off.

If you're the stock AstroBiotics? Not nearly as much stress. I may not win (due to card draw or whatever), but at least I've got the best approach pre-calculated, so to speak.

p.s. one other observation - if you're actually doing a lot of deckbuilding/tinkering, you can sometimes pretty closely guess stuff like Agenda/ICE composition, strength and form of economy used, rig setups, estimated memory issues and similar things, as those are the challenges you've already faced yourself. Worst case scenario? You guess wrong, and maybe the opponent managed to do something you didn't - then, you can revisit your idea and apply new solutions to it! To quote David Bowie from Zoolander: "Now, this'll be a straight walk-off, old school rules. First model walks; second model duplicates, then elaborates. Okay, boys - let's go to work!"

For example, I've made so many attempts to build various weird Jinteki decks that after seeing a non-standard card in one, I can usually tell which corners the opponent cut to make it fit in there. That's definitely a good skill to have, in my opinion.
    • Grimwalker, LeoLancer, Yoshuriken and 1 other like this

Someone pulling out some sort of weirdness I'm actually unfamiliar with is much worse - I only have the space of one game to both figure out what the hell he's up to and come up with the best counterplay option and actually pull it off.


For example, I've made so many attempts to build various weird Jinteki decks that after seeing a non-standard card in one, I can usually tell which corners the opponent cut to make it fit in there. That's definitely a good skill to have, in my opinion.


On the surface these statements would seem to conflict. Can you go into more detail? Is it that you happen to be more familiar with the design space of Jinteki, and seeing something janky in, say Weyland, is less familiar to you and makes you think harder trying to make that judgment? I'm not trying to challenge you, I think you're hitting on something compelling here.
They do seem to conflict, don't they? :D Sorry for being unclear - the "weird" in the first quote refers to "something I haven't experimented with yet and don't know what to expect of", while the "weird" in the second quote just means "something other than the bog-standard fare".

For instance, if I run on your Jinteki deck and I see a Howler, I can be reasonably sure that the following list has a good chance of being included in your deck:
  • 3 Whirlpools
  • 2 or 3 Interns
  • 2 or 3 Januses (depending on whether you want to run Jacksons or not)
  • 2 Cell Portals
  • one copy of Sunset a distinct possibility
That's because that particular setup is one of the rather few where splashing for a Howler actually makes sense in Jinteki. This experience in turn tells me to be able to break either a Howler or a Whirlpool, because those are the ways to completely nullify that.

I picked Jinteki for my example because they seem to have the most funky stuff that people are trying with them, but here's an example with Weyland - nobody plays BWBI, so that ID choice alone probably qualifies as "janky" in a semi-competitive or competitive environment:

Your opponent sits down and shows Because We Built It. That alone gives you some information as to the composition of his deck and how you need to play (like, don't be double-scorchable and floating tags even if he's at 0 credits and has some advanced ICE, because Commercialization). Then, let's assume he knows what he's doing and for some reasons, this is a better ID for him than the Core Weyland.

What would those reasons be? Commercialization and Shadows advanced to 4 alone won't cut it, probably. Let's assume he's further building on it with influence. Two splashes come to mind immediately:
  • Archived Memories, because recurring a fully set-up Commercialization is just sick
  • Trick of Light, to leverage that whole ICE-advancement engine into the last agenda reliably
If you then see a Scorch, you can bet he's probably running at least 1 SEA Source. If you see a Jackson, there's a good chance he's running three of them (though he could be running just two and taking a Ghost Branch or something for the third inf).

Connections like this spring to my mind mainly because I've spent a ton of time playing and tweaking various builds of BWBI, and now I know which ones were not improved by swapping IDs (and the one I'm describing now is about the only one that actually worked for me).

Some of those assumptions will naturally turn out to be wrong as play progresses, and maybe my opponent hasn't gotten as far in this particular tuning process as I have (and didn't yet find out that Archived Memories is a better use of influence than the third Trick of Light, for instance), but having them lets me better use the information that I get as the game progresses.

Compare this thought process to something that falls into the first "weird" category, where I see someone pull out a card I haven't played around with and so don't have a clear picture about its good/bad interactions with other cards.

(so, did I get clearer or more confusing/flat out wrong? Tell me :P)
    • LeoLancer, Yoshuriken and CommissarFeesh like this
Photo
CommissarFeesh
Apr 25 2014 05:24 PM
Peekay, that's awesome :) also; do you happen to have a BWBI list that you liked?

I tried out a silly janky version some time ago that used AIZ and PrioReq to build abominable servers (using Hadrians, and even Tyrant and Woodcutter). Sadly I never quite got it working howI wanted (although it was brutal when it did work, it was't consistent).

Made some epic Glaciers though - Tyrant with 4 or 5 advancements is EXPENSIVE to break, and you can't even Femme past cheaply (Morning Star and Parasite make you cry though).

Peekay, that's awesome :) also; do you happen to have a BWBI list that you liked?


AIZ isn't worth the effort, it's too easy to trash from RnD. You basically need to run Interns to make it work, and then you're super-vulnerable to Parasites and Morning Star, like you mentioned.

I have a list that I've been tinkering on and off, it's not really finished yet though. It goes something like this:

BWBI

Weyland Consortium: Because We Built It (A Study in Static)

Agenda (9)
2x Government Contracts (A Study in Static)
2x Hostile Takeover (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)
2x The Cleaners (Second Thoughts)

Asset (3)
3x GRNDL Refinery (Fear and Loathing)

Operation (20)
2x Archived Memories (Core Set) ••••
3x Beanstalk Royalties (Core Set)
3x Commercialization (Cyber Exodus)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Scorched Earth (Core Set)
2x SEA Source (Core Set) ••••
2x Trick of Light (Trace Amount) ••••• •
2x Witness Tampering (Double Time)

Barrier (7)
2x Bastion (Creation and Control)
2x Hadrian's Wall (Core Set)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)

Code Gate (3)
1x Chum (Core Set) •
2x Enigma (Core Set)

Sentry (7)
2x Archer (Core Set)
3x Shadow (Core Set)
2x Swarm (Opening Moves)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Double Time

Deck built on NetrunnerDB

The most notable cards in that list right now are the single Chum (because Chums are awesome) and Witness Tamperings (because I'll presumably be rezzing a lot of Swarms, what with Emergency Shutdowns and all, and BP sorta murders the whole "advanced Shadow" play).

I'm still undecided on the Archers - they don't make a terrible lot of sense in here, but then again there's no decent replacement for them, either. Maybe I'll go down to 1 Archer. Also, one other variant that might be worth trying is to replace the Beanstalks with Power Shutdown, for Corroder/Sucker nukage purposes.
    • CommissarFeesh likes this
Photo
CommissarFeesh
Apr 27 2014 12:04 AM
Thanks, appreciated :)

No Fracking? One of my fave agendas ;) Can't argue with the sheer power of Government Contracts though.

Good on your including Swarm too; I genuinely think that card is seriously underrated.

Have you tested with Simone Diego? I always found myself cutting her for more critical cards, but she does seem like she'd be good for turns where you just want to advance lots.

EDIT: We should probably make a thread rather than continue to hijack this comments section :P
No Fracking. See above re: BP - I'll already have tons from Swarms, and I have Commercialization (and some recursion) for monies. Fracking is very good with BABW (and to a lesser extent GRNDL), not here though.

I have tested with Simone, she's a long-standing favorite of mine, but now I'm experimenting with the BP aspects of the deck, so this version has the Tamperings in her slots, if I wanted to play her again, I'd probably go down to 1 Tampering and 1 Archer.

This comments section is totally fine for this discussion - Grim can always stop us if he feels the need :D
Photo
charlie4727
May 31 2014 06:52 PM

'Reverse Engineering' is the perfect way to put it. Netrunner, IMHO, is a skill game, it cannot be metagamed, netdecked, cashdecked or robodecked beyond a limited extent or at all.

 

As a beginner I learn a lot by reading winning deck lists and analysing the strategy and composition. Effectively reverse engineering how I should play.

 

Then taking that decklist, normally somewhat modified, and losing repeatedly with it teaches me so much. I know it is my own lack of skill that is the problem and that helps me see much better where I am making errors.

 

In conclusion, I suck.