Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

Search Articles

* * * * *

Tech Talk - False Echo

Android: Netrunner Tech Talk Scud

***Thanks to Tech Talk consultant (and very good friend) Eldil for the inspiration for this deck. Except for the Chakana (Creation and Control) + Surge (Humanity's Shadow) part. That's just weird.***

We often sit around here at the Tech Talk ranch, eating pieces of processed pasteurized American cheesefood topped with balsamic vinegar ketchup and crumbled potato chips (we call them Instant Pizzas) and looking through our cards, searching for ways to use the ones no one loves. Sometimes we end up hitting on a single interaction that leads to the opening of the metaphorical deckbuilding floodgates. Other times, it is only through sheer, stubborn force of will (and the vigorous consumption of far too many Instant Pizzas) that we come up with a deck. This time, however, was different.

This time is was all about the fluff.

We set our sights on False Echo, cracked open a new notebook AND a fresh pack of Kraft slices, and started brainstorming. False Echo lets you punish the Corp for installing ICE she isn't ready to rez. When it goes off, she either ponies up the dough to rez it or she loses the click (and, possibly, the credits) she used to install the targeted ICE. This also has the added benefit of clogging her hand, making it harder for her to get done all the things she wants to get done without having to discard. The downside is that, unlike Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus), the Corp knows you have False Echo becuase it is a Program. You need the ability to install on the fly in order to surprise the Corp with it, which means you won't be able to tutor up other important things mid-run. Quite a quandary. Many Instant Pizzas met their fates that evening, we can tell you.

So there we are, just staring at False Echo, greasy fingers drumming the table top (which really needs a cleaning, BTW), grooving on the hippie, dippy, trippy art, trying to come up with the best use of this silly 1-cost, 1MU program, when we read the flavor text for the hundredth time and it hits us like the zesty balsamic tang at the end of an Instant Pizza – Rielle "Kit" Peddler: Transhuman (Creation and Control)! This program is a digitally-transcendental trip and why not just go with the flow and build something around our favorite cyber-flower child? False Echo shows her chakras, for the love of Pete!

We washed our hands, rolled up our sleeves, put Strawberry Alarm Clock's Incense and Peppermints on repeat, and got to work. First we needed to figure out how, if at all, False Echo works with Kit's ID ability. Kit, of course, turns the first piece of ICE she encounters each turn into a Code Gate (in addition to whatever type it already is) until the end of the run. False Echo allows you to force the Corp to rez a piece of unrezzed ICE you just passed or put it back in their hand. So at the most basic level, Kit and False Echo have similarities in that they affect ICE. The problem is that Kit affects rezzed ICE while False Echo affects unrezzed ICE. If you can use one, you can't use the other. Unless...

Crescentus (A Study In Static).

Ok, so now we have a way to benefit from both abilities at the same time (so to speak) – break the subroutines on the first ICE with a Decoder because it's a Code Gate, trash Crescentus to derez it, then use False Echo to either cost the Corp more money or the tempo hit of having to reinstall it or a new piece of ICE on a later turn. So now, what kind of deck would want abilities like these in it? Well, let's stick with fluff: uninstalling ICE is similar to destroying it, so we'll go with an ICE-denial kind of strategy, making the mean old Corp stop forcing the poor little ICE to do its dirty work. Sounds all free-love and tie-dye to us.

Kit only has ten Influence to spend, so let's do that first. If ICE denial is going to be our thing, then let's look to Anarchs. Two Datasucker (Core), two Parasite (Core), and a single Djinn (Core) to tutor for them brings us to eight Influence. Add in two copies of Crescentus and we're at our limit. We will, of course, want a couple copies of False Echo. We'll pack in three copies of Clone Chip (Creation and Control) and two copies of Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control) for mid-run shenanniganery with Crescentus, False Echo, or Parasites. SMC will also let us find needed 'breakers.

Speaking of 'breakers, we'll go light with Gordian Blade (Core), Deus X (A Study In Static), and a single Crypsis (Core), which we can tutor for using SMC or Djinn. Since the idea is to get rid of ICE as fast as the Corp plays it, we're not going to sweat digging up a dedicated Decoder ASAP. We'll use Gordian over the other in-faction options because it pairs well with Tinkering (Core) on servers that have multiple ICE mid- to late-game.

And that brings us to Events. In addition to Tinkering, of which we'll take three, we'll also use two copies of Kraken (Humanity's Shadow). The card is a BEAST (literally and figuratively – just look at those tentacles!), especially when you know what you're going to access and can plan ahead. To help with that, and our threat level in general, we're going to grab three copies of The Maker's Eye (Core) and two copies of Indexing (Future Proof). Now, yes, we know that right now, it's Jackson Howard (Opening Moves)'s world and we're all just living in it, so Indexing can be screwed up pretty easily, but if you are careful with when you use it, it can still be a force to be reckoned with. You won't be usually be making multiple runs per turn in the mid- and late-game, since your ID ability only works on the first run, so you want to use Indexing to order the cards so that you can get to them in a turn or two. (Note: You may be able to clear the ICE off R&D and run it multiple times, especially in the early game and if you can, runrunrun!) We'll take one Escher (Creation and Control) for late-game jackassery and one Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) to get back powerful events, recursion tricks, and our one-shot Programs if/when we need 'em. For economy, we'll take three each of Sure Gamble (Core) and Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control), which is great with a deck running Datasuckers, letting you benefit from even a run on an empty Archives (it's even better on a pre-Indexed R&D run that you know is going to nab you an Agenda while you have Kraken in hand).

With so many great Events, we'll want a couple copies of Same Old Thing (Creation and Control). That'll let us get back Tinkerings, Maker's Eyes, and Indexings as well as letting us toss Levy AR Labs Access is we draw it too early. To round out our Resources, we'll do what all the cool kids (if by cool kids, you mean everyone everywhere) are doing by taking three copies of Professional Contacts (Creation and Control).

We've already mentioned three copies of Clone Chip, but we're going to use a couple other pieces of Hardware, neither of which we're super-excited about but which feel pretty necessary: The Toolbox (Core) because we need a lot of MU and Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead) because we don't like to die in a rain of hellfire and regret.

So, when you mix all those cards together, you end up with the deck we're calling...


INFORMATION JUST WANTS TO BE FREE, MAN.
Identity: Rielle "Kit" Peddler: Transhuman (Creation and Control)

Total Cards: (45)

Event (18)
Tinkering (Core) x3
The Maker's Eye (Core) x3
Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) x1
Indexing (Future Proof) x2
Escher (Creation and Control) x1
Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control) x3
Kraken (Humanity's Shadow) x2
Sure Gamble (Core) x3

Hardware (7)
The Toolbox (Core) x2
Clone Chip (Creation and Control) x3
Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead) x2

Program (15)
Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control) x2
False Echo (Opening Moves) x2
Deus X (A Study In Static) x1
Datasucker (Core) x2 (2 Inf)
Djinn (Core) x1 (2 Inf)
Parasite (Core) x2 (4 Inf)
Crescentus (A Study In Static) x2 (2 Inf)
Gordian Blade (Core) x2
Crypsis (Core) x1

Resource (5)
Professional Contacts (Creation and Control) x3
Same Old Thing (Creation and Control) x2


There are a lot of little tweaks you can make right out of the gate. If you aren't confident about Indexing in your meta, swap it for R&D Interface (Future Proof) or use the two slots for other 'breakers like Cyber-Cypher (Creation and Control) or ZU.13 Key Master (What Lies Ahead). You could drop The Toolbox for Akamatsu Mem Chip (Core). Modded (Core) could be a good addition, especially if you switch to R&D Interface. Overall, the core here is False Echo, Crescentus, Djinn, Datasucker, Parasite, SMC, Clone Chip, Gordian Blade, and Tinkering (and probably Same Old Thing and Professional Contacts). Let's go out and put this baby through her paces, come back here, and share our thoughts, okay? We'll see you back here in two weeks. You bring your eyeballs, we'll bring the Instant Pizzas.
  • Eldil, Zoyfar, kurthl33t and 4 others like this


16 Comments

It's so crazy, it just might work! I'll have to throw this together and play around with it. It looks like fun to play if nothing else.

Also, what would be links for 'Datasucker' and 'Parasite' are instead followed by the text 'Unknown Card'. What did you do Scud, what did you do?!

Considering all the programs the deck is running, a relatively light economy, and the likely probability you probably won't be encountering more than one Code Gate ICE per run, I think 'ZU.13 Key Master' might be preferable to 'Gordian Blade'. It's cheaper to install and potentially free on memory use.

Also considering the focus of this deck is to derez and trash ICE, I don't think the deck needs three copies of 'Tinkering'. May need testing to see exactly how much ICE we can derez/trash to how much the Corp can install and rez. Credit denial may work well here, as may 'Ice Analyzer'.

You know, I think I may try to put together a Criminal 'False Echo' deck using 'Cortez Chip' and 'Forged Activation Orders', as well as all the other usual Criminal goodies.
Time to write a different article for this week, Scud - you can't use False Echo on a Crescentus'ed ICE.

This was the first thing I thought about - problem is, it doesn't work. I will now refer you to the Timing Structure of a Run, as found in the FAQ:

The definition of passed ice, on which False Echo triggers, is "ice that is unrezzed when being approached" (step 2.4). Crescentus requires you to break through all subroutines, which means you need to actually encounter the ice - and that only happens to ice that "is rezzed when being approached". Those two are completely mutually exclusive in the truest sense of the word.

Sorry to rain on your parade :P

edit: you're right about one thing, though - Kit is about the only runner that benefits from False Echo. The benefit requires you to play Emergency Shutdown and possibly Cortez chip though - the way to go is:

1) shutdown a nasty piece of ice
2) stop the corp from rezzing it
3) false echo it into hand, so it becomes the first ICE in a server when installed again (so you can break it as a code gate)

Probably needs Rooks to work though, don't think Cortez Chip will quite cut it
    • Paddosan, paradoX, Zoyfar and 1 other like this

Time to write a different article for this week, Scud - you can't use False Echo on a Crescentus'ed ICE.

You beat me to it.
@PeekaySK: Actually, a friend of mine has been playing a very similar deck as this for a little while now, and we also found the Crescentus/False Echo-issue to be somewhat problematic. However, on page 18 of the rule book, it states, under "Encountering Ice", that "After the Runner breaks all of the ice's subroutines and/or any effects from unbroken subroutines resolve without ending the run, he has passed that piece of ice." (Own emphasis) Also a bit further up, page 17, under "2. Confrontation Phase": "The Runner must PASS each piece of ice in order to approach the next piece of ice protecting the server."

To me, that really does make it seem like you can False Eccho a Crescentus'd ice.

@Scud: With all this derezzing going on, how about finding some room for a Xanadu? Dropping either a Djinn or a Parasite (or both, since having only one Xanadu is all sorts of unreliable) seems okay-ish, but I can see why one would be on the fence about it. You would at least have to add an SMC to make up for it.

Edit: Thinking about it a bit though, there is another issue with the False Crescentus: Does False Echo's condition require you to pass an ice while it is derezzed, or is it enough that you 1) passed it and 2) it is now derezzed? A query for the wise.

...However, on page 18 of the rule book, it states, under "Encountering Ice"...


FAQ supersedes the original rulebook - that's sort of the whole purpose of it. The way they used the bolding on the Timing Structure makes it pretty clear they're defining the terms, in my opinion.

Might be worth submitting a rules question to Lukas, though.

edit: sent. Might be a while before we get a reply, what with Lukas being busy scorching you US/CA newbs and all :P
I'm not gonna abandon all hope about the interact working YET, though. Sure, when the Corp declines to rez a piece of ICE you PASS it. That doesn't necessarily mean that you don't PASS it after breaking its subroutines.

Lets all wait for Lukas and, in the mean time, I'll tinker with this build to "fix" it, should that be needed.
It works.

Lukas already ruled it in a thread on boardgamegeek. You pass a piece of ICE regardless of whether it was rezzed or not.

added link: http://www.boardgame...rticle/13331717
    • Jhaelen, Icedman, paradoX and 2 others like this
I made a deck like this with Kit, and it works reasonably well. Can use false echo to force all non-code gates from the server, so if they are reinstalled they are on the outside, and her ability can turn them into code gates again. With that, Escher and Tinkering you rarely need anything other than Gordian blade, until very late game.
    • PeekaySK and authenticait like this
@Kamalisk: Thanks. I knew I had seen that thread but I couldn't find it this morning in my just-woke-up haze, so I wanted to hedge my bets until I was awake enough to dig it up.

Crisis averted!
    • paradoX likes this
On some level I'm really glad I'm wrong, because Kit is my favorite of the new Runner identities (and also, it makes False Echo slightly less wallpaper-y).

One more thing I'm wondering about - would it be possible to squeeze some hand destruction into a deck like this? You know, to capitalize on the fact that you can bounce a piece of ICE that's actually a pain. You'd probably need Sneakdoor for it (so it isn't ridiculously expensive), but that plays well into Escher. The version I'm thinking about would probably have to be an Anarch deck, because most of the parts I'd need are red. Maybe try to do it with Reina Roja, as her ability would play right into the whole derezzing/force-rezzing thing.

Kamalisk, that's a great point about the advanceable ICE. Shame that with the exception of Swarm (and possibly Hadrian), they'd have to be completely broke for it to work, as False Echo isn't an automatic bounce.
Photo
CovenantPhil
Oct 08 2013 03:26 PM
One minor note, at one point you mention Kit's ability being only good for the first run. In fact, it's the first encounter with ICE that it affects, whether that's on the first run or the fourth. This is particularly important as inexperienced Corps may not rez ICE on Kit's first run, thinking they'll let the ability fizzle and save themselves the embarrassment of getting Yogged (though not by this deck, as it omits Yog) for no gain. Only, if they don't rez ICE on the first run, rezzing it on the second run is just as futile.
Got a response from Lukas - confirming the BGG ruling.

Time to build this sucker and take it out for a spin! :)
This looks wild. You'd mentioned this article at Pastimes, and it's cool to see it put together! I hadn't thought of that interaction before (Which is kind of the whole point of these articles, after all). I do wonder how you'd tweak it (if at all) now that you've seen what is in store for the Spin Cycle...

It was great meeting you at the Plugged In tour! I hope you had an awesome Sunday too.
I am very proud my original deck inspired this article, and a great article it is.

But you slighted my Chakana + Surge combo, and for that I shall never forgive you.

You're a shaper. You're going to be running on R&D anyways. And if you have a copy of self-modifying code in play, and a copy of Surge in your hand, just before you access R&D, self-modify Chakana into existence, and then drop the surge on it.

I think the deck in this article makes better choices with its influence--maybe Chakana/Surge belongs in another shaper deck. But a Chakana with three tokens can break hearts, son.
Chakana/Surge is something I'm using to great effect in a Kate deck that runs Grimoire as its console. That way, I don't even need to get into RnD to trigger the agenda-screw effect.

(Grimoire is in there because what I need most is cheap memory, and since I'm running Datasuckers anyway, why not :) )
    • Eldil likes this
I love the Tech Talk series, but I really couldn't get past the first paragraph involving "Instant Pizzas." I've read a lot of interesting tips from this series so I wanted to provide some of my own: they sell pizzas you can cook in the oven that are already prepared that take like 5-10mins to cook, so while not instant (you will experience a small tempo hit) you will be more efficient with your credit-to-benefit investment if you swap these out for your 3x of "Instant Pizzas" (or as my local meta calls them, "not-really-a-pizza-at-alls"). Furthermore, If you live in a metro area (not unlike SanSan or New Angeles) you can likely purchase pre-made dough (or if you are low on creds, actual flour) and add your own ingredients to make an all-food rig. Other than that, keep up the good work.
    • Paddosan, MrLordcaptain, Ghandian and 6 others like this