2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 86

I thought that this was good for an in depth discussion about the implications of House of Dreams, and how much it will impact the game. I'm a little curious, why even do a bottom-5/standard review of this CP when there is another card that could be equally game changing? Time will tell how much this CP really shakes things up, but I think that Little and Less is about on-par with house of dreams in terms of being an unprecedented effect for the game. Maybe next episode you could devote a bit of time to Brienne of Tarth, the uncancellable event.

Oh yes, we debated for awhile about what to do with the top 5, and in the end decided that it was more amusing to just do a top 1 for House of Dreams, but I'll make sure that we bring things back around to discussing Little and Less soon. We'll be back to Worlds Prep for a little bit, but I think discussing it after Worlds is a great idea.

For the record, if I was choosing a top five of the pack it would be:
*House of Dreams (by a wide margin)
*Little and Less (which is great but I'm not personally convinced of how bonkers it is)
*Rhymes with Meek (though I'm not sure it will see a ton of play, but giving an extra save vs burn is solid)
*The Bastard's Boys (they won't be cheaper than 5 or 6 most games but they claim raising will go off almost every time you attack with them)
*Brazen Beasts (extra renown out of Targ is solid, good trait, extra power grab when burning is good although the limit to once per phase hurts)

I really like the Dragonbone Bow. Even though it is an attachment, it's a very threatening and effective one and believe it belongs in the top 5. I like several of these new cards a lot.

I love both Dragonbone Bow and Brazen Beasts. It'll be interesting to see what Little and Less does to the meta. I'm not sure how bonkers it is... you have to really plan well to have that effect do what you intend because not being able to trigger responses hurts you as much as them (if you haven't planned specifically for it).

One particular thing that I think will be an extremely strong use of Little and Less is to ensure that Valar Morghulis wipes the board. If you play it in the response step to beginning the Plot phase, then reveal Valar as your plot, everything will die without any chance for saves. Well, that is assuming that your opponent isn't running a bunch of nobles with Power of Blood because you'll have telegraphed Valar pretty well. Still, in all other situations (and particularly against Greyjoy) it'll sure seal the deal.

Dragonbone bow is really cool. And a total beast in melee.

Little and Less's use with Valar is huge, but it does a pretty nasty job of shutting down maesters completely for a turn (can't even take chains off your agenda), and hosing Siege of Winterfell decks, among others.

I actually feel that in heavy aggro/tempo decks HoD doesn't give you so much advantage that you would want to run it (more likely it will create new deck types from those that work little bit differently). When I play all out aggro I really do need the setup on my characters and my locations might also be only of the income kind. What this leads to is a lot faster and aggressive start for the deck. Now if I was running HoD with a 3 cost location yeah I would be on the profit side, but it hasn't increased my board presence as much as having more setuped characters. Only House that I would exclude from this is Stark thanks to their otherwise already high aggressive nature and their toolbox capabilities.

Now for me I feel that most of the agendas we currently have a pretty much drawbackless. Really has there ever been a time when winter agenda was a drawback? or when we got TMP and it wasn't errated? or even after the errata before the new tournament rules? It is only gain for the deck as if the other part happens you are usually the one with house Stark/GJ who doesn't have too many cards in hand. Heck I could even argue that nearly all agendas aer very slight on drawbacks and the only one being that you have to make your deck according to the theme of the agenda. Especially Summer has and probably still will be the easy go to agenda for draw with barely any wasted deck build slots (carrion birds are good for 1 cost, so is Sam, so is Gilly only thing that isn't tight tournament card on its own is black raven). The thing that I'm trying to get is that even when summer has clear listed downside... I really havent seen situations in years where it had a downside against a noagenda deck.

I also think that HoD adds so much diversity that the Jaime players will not be cherry picking just few locations. Themes are really strong in this game and this thing is to many trait themes what the summer agenda is for the "gains something when its summer" cards. When you are calculating the meta you will surely think of the few power locations splashed with this, but you should not forget the synergy it allows to theme decks.

Now I do think you guys are right with the fact that this agenda completely goes over most no-agenda deck types much like TMP year ago without the errata (1 apprentice collar).

I felt this CP had 2 true meta shakers, HoD & L&L. Both of these cards are strong and both of them have a clear difference. HoD changes the meta by bringing new things in and closes very few old builds out. Where on the other hand L&L closes some of the current popular decks, but brings barely any little new on the environment itself. I will surely be intrigued to see what kind of decks we will soon see. Kinda sad this CP isn't allowed in Stahleck yet.

I don't think it's "that" overpowered (HoD), but at least is easy to errata!! ....just lower the gold for setup from 3 to 2 or 1. Or just do the heir thingy and make it house baratheon only xP

I think what is being overlooked a bit in these OP discussions is that House of Dreams has an opportunity cost in that you are choosing not to run another agenda. So it probably does gain you something during setup, and that is certainly awesome and powerful and amazazing and all that, but other agendas also are powerful and you are leaving them alone to choose this one.

So, basically this agenda is awesome but I bet it won't break the game. Though maybe it will. I certainly wouldn't want to play Zeiler's Stark Knights with this....but then where is his draw coming from?

As Greg said on the main FFG boards (and I completely agree) the "opportunity cost" arguement is moot. All agendas have the exact same opportunity cost (of not running another agenda) so there is no reason to bring it up since EVERY agenda has that cost.

As far as where my draw comes from the answer to that is Ser Kyle Condon, Harrenhall, and Maester Luwin just in the deck as it is right now. I'd probably work in some more draw if I were to build a House of Dreams deck (which I'm sure I will after Worlds) but it will be easier to do once I'm able to cut out some of the more average knights and replace them with better characters.

Ok i have a solution, i recomend a that someone make a champion card (or any card).

PLOT

4-4-2
If you have no agenda the plot gains:
"When revealed choose one
-Discard a location from hand to discard a location from play
-Discard a character from hand to discard a character from play
-Discard an attachment from hand to discard an att from play

...If it is to much you can forget the discard and just bounce it to hand.

How is that for a silver bullet advantage for no agendas!!! xD

Ok i have a solution, i recomend a that someone make a champion card (or any card).

PLOT

4-4-2
If you have no agenda the plot gains:
"When revealed choose one
-Discard a location from hand to discard a location from play
-Discard a character from hand to discard a character from play
-Discard an attachment from hand to discard an att from play

...If it is to much you can forget the discard and just bounce it to hand.

How is that for a silver bullet advantage for no agendas!!! xD

Call it "Three Treasons."

As Greg said on the main FFG boards (and I completely agree) the "opportunity cost" arguement is moot. All agendas have the exact same opportunity cost (of not running another agenda) so there is no reason to bring it up since EVERY agenda has that cost.

I read that thread and I agree with twn2dn's take on the matter. By choosing House of Dreams you are by definition not choosing Maesters or Summer, etc. Opportunity cost is not equal among agendas since by choosing one you are leaving a different one out. (So if I choose White Book then I leave HoD and Summer out; if I choose HoD then I leave White Book and Summer out.....obviously the cost for HoD here is less since White Book sucks). The opportunity cost for House of Dreams is fairly high since you don't run other agendas; it also makes the other agendas cost higher as well.....which is a good thing in some ways since it will dilute Maesters and Season builds and a bad thing in others since mid-tier agendas like Seige and Heir fall further behind.

You also have to look at it more in terms of net positive for your deck over time rather than in just the setup boost. If you choose summer, you will likely draw (in a 6-plot joust) 5 more cards and turn on summer card effects. If you choose HoD you get a location search and a good setup. By choosing your good setup, you leave the opportunity for five cards that you could have gotten from Kings of Summer in your deckbox. That IS an opportunity cost. Same with Summer: you leave the opportunity for location search in your deckbox to get the card advantage.

To me, the main thing with House of Dreams is that while it gives many locations the ability to finally see the light of day, there are probably one, two, or three builds that are just ridiculously good using the agenda. I also don't think that it will take long for players to find them (kindof like Uber Robert Maesters) and this will need a pile of errata. Let's also not forget that the "good setup" also includes a location that you get the effect from turn one, which feeds into the "net positive" that you get over time. This doesn't help with setup and then be done.....tutoring is always better than random draw.

Dobbler didn't like this line of reasoning (about opportunity cost) because he felt that comparing this OP agenda to other OP agendas didn't fix the problem of OP agendas in general (or something close to that) but the fact remains that agendas are strong, that this is one of the best, and we will see how it goes. Is it the most powerful card ever in Thrones? I think that's probably a bit carried away......

PS: Since I'm still undefeated against Zeiler, maybe we need to schedule a meetup soon where I take my Targaryen Griff deck into battle against his Stark House of Dreams and he teaches me a lesson

I am reading that back and I may have misrepresented Dobbler a bit. Apologies for making his argument seem simplistic since it is actually quite compelling.

We do indeed need to schedule a meetup soon. I'm hoping to get some interest from the other guys to come down with me at some point after Worlds. Though the holidays might make this tricky. *sigh*

Why can't everyone I know and like live in the same place?