First Tilt - Expanding House Greyjoy

I do not think Drowned Disciple can trigger Corpse Lake.

Also Support of Saltcliff is a great defense piece on Euron as it stands him every time you are challenged.

How about motley crewman? i consider it auto include in my mill, i run 3 of them . Also, how about some maester's path as an agenda? with brass link to discard , also my deck is based MAINLY in the awesome bloodthirsty crew fueled by steel link to give them +2F, wins unoposed by intimidate every time discards 2 (3 with motley) and with support of harlaw it stands again! Also considerable drowned fanatic to discard 2 every time you win initiative, frostfang peaks to discard when new plot revealed, and my masterpiece: visenya's hill to move unique characters discarded to the dead pile denying all the other copies! I found out you cannot win with a milling deck unless everything in your deck is prepared to mill

nice article, last week I was hoping that the article would be for the Greyjoys

Thanks for the article. I run a melee mill deck sometimes and was wondering what advice you'd have for the strictly melee player like me. Also, why not run Building Season if Corpse Lake is so crucial to the deck's strategy? Or, have those types of cards fallen out of favor in anything but melee?

Again, awesome articles and keep 'em coming.

Cheers.

@Scottie - hmmm, it's a valid point. Does Drowned Disciple's text count as a triggered effect? I thought so because his death triggers the discard... but it doesn't have the Response text. So, you may have a point there. I'll have to check the ruling on that. Also, Support of Saltcliff is a good card, but it requires yet another chapter pack.

@aelith - Some solid card choices, but to get all those cards, a player has to purchase a number of CPs to get those cards. That went beyond the scope of this article.

@bigfomlof - I'd like to see us do some more specific stuff for Melee. The biggest advice I can give is more general. In Melee, people will hate your deck and they will be gunning for you, so you need to try and either build in ways to gain power quickly (to end the game) or to prevent them from hitting you (whether that be with High Initiative and Ahead of the Tide (WotN) to ensure you get Crown Regent or through card effects). But, Days of Ice and Fire shows that Discard can win in Melee since that's what the Melee Champ used. Search plots have fallen out of favor because too many decks have great locations or characters and giving your opponent that character is really risky. It can hurt you as often as it helps you. If you run it, I'd consider adding another Newly Made Lord to combat the bonus location they're getting.

Is it not incredibly risky to run only 5 resource locations when you have 3 cards that you need a resource location to play (unless you flop him in set-up or something)? Especially when you also have two copies of The Knight and a LOT of 3-cost characters. Depending on your draw and set-up you're looking at, on average, not getting a resource location until turn 2 or so. And given you only have 11 character cards costing less than 3, your set-ups probably won't be too hot generally (which I know is kinda the point what with First Snow, but still stops you digging through your deck for the limited resources you do have).

On top of that, if someone follows the Valar Morghulis advice and subs out Promise and Stay for the River plots, that drops your average plot income to 3. Which means that, on an average turn you're only going to be able to play 1 or 2 cards; you'll only be able to play your higher cost characters on 2 turns in every 7, and one of those turns you're basically forced into making immediately after First Snow, so if you don't already have Euron at that point that means you'll likely have to play Power of Blood in order to have a hope of getting Euron out, which then means you don't have the plot to protect him from Valar on the following turn.

Basically, I think the deck needs either at least 3 more resource locations, or a couple of more profitable plots - there aren't many in the sets you mentioned, but other sets a first-time player is likely to buy offer some options, such as Take Them by Surprise (LoW) for instance. Maybe Rains of Autumn (Core) since the only gold producing card in the deck is Aeron's Chambers?

Personally I'd rejig it slightly though - take out the Drowned Disciples (they're good, but pricey and you get more value out of Euron, The Knight and so on because the effects are repeatable) and Aeron Greyjoy (we just took out the only cards in the deck he can search for). That helps the gold curve and gives 5 free spaces for at least 2 Resource Locations (which does mess up the character-location ratio a bit but with multiple saves and an emphasis on keeping high-cost cards out that shouldn't matter so much, especially if you perhaps use the extra spaces to invest in a couple more Wendamyrs).

That all said, this is just conjecture, I haven't played the deck to give an opinion with any actual authority on the matter. On top of that, I think it's very good advice to tell people to focus on newer sets (and the Boatswains) for Greyjoy, and the writing and reasoning behind it was all top notch. The detail of why is exactly what new players need, and it's all put out there without being too heavy as it were. Thanks for the article!

Thanks for the great suggestions. Resource curve is definitely a concern and I honestly hadn't thought about the second hit it takes if you put in the VM plots. I just saw those effects and figured if you bought it for the new Aeron, you should throw those in to try it out. My bad there - should have actually test played with the new plots and I'd have seen it (but could only test play so many configurations realistically).

In my tests, I was always able to get Euron out, but more resources certainly wouldn't hurt the deck. I was trying hard to stick with the char/loc balance that's the typical recommendation, but, as in all decks, play around with that a bit. The deck is weak on resources, so fewer characters and more reducers or gold might be what it needs to work more quickly and a heavier location focus can actually help you in a First Snow deck.

As far as the triggered thing goes, I assume Drowned Disciple is a passive effect (and therefore all the more reason to drop him!) - it's true that the effect is literally triggered, but not technically - for an example, Newly Made Lord (TftH)'s effect is literally triggered by him entering play, but the effect itself is still passive.

I've been looking at Greyjoy on a budget right now, and the unopposed theme seems to be doing better than the mill. I'm just not convinced by mill at all. The only reason to discard is for effects; the mill doesn't hurt your opponent at all otherwise. It may even help them if they're running something like Ambush From the Plains.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did a good job with the article. I would've just gone in a more Intimidate/Rise of the Kraken/Assault of the Kraken/Tourney Lance/Scouting Vessel route. My associate had a melee the other day where he had Wex Pyke with Tourney Lance and Support of Harlaw. He was facing a Dragon deck, so he stealthed Dany each time and won an unopposed challenge, then stood back up. With two Assault of the Kraken events on the Rise of the Kraken turn, I think he got 9 power and cleared the board. It was nasty. Situations like this are fairly common, especially with the new Asha and The Knight. Joust + Scouting Vessel = auto win for a challenge.

Maybe I just need to see more mill in play. The guy who does that around here isn't any good anyway so maybe that is stilting my views

@OKTarg: Mill, in my (admittedly limited) experience, does seem to do better in Melee than in Joust. You can force people to attack you (with supports), get extra income, and have more opportunities to pick at low-hanging fruit for those extra unopposed challenges. A lot of the effects, too, target all opponents, so you can get some good bang for your buck there.

...however, Joust + Scouting Vessel is pretty crazy... I need to try that more.

Unopposed is a great theme - I completely agree! It's just harder to build in my opinion within the constraints we'd placed on this series. It's already stretching new players to ask them to buy 6+ chapter packs after getting two cores and an expansion.

That said, I have to disagree with you on your assessment that it doesn't hurt your opponent at all. If the engine gets going, milling cards is incredibly damaging. Most houses (except Targ) don't have an easy way to retrieve cards from discard (or if they do, they're not always running them). Watching your key cards vanish into discard is brutal for anyone. This deck, when played well, can cause horror for your opponent as they watch their Renown characters go away and their dupes and their saves. In one test, I milled 45 cards (that test had two Desperate Looters (SA) played on the First Snow turn... four discards in one turn before a single challenge was made and a guaranteed two on the next turn... it was awesome - perfect storm.) The Mill theme can be devastating... but I won't lie to you and say it's easy to pull off every time.

Drowned Disciple and Theon Greyjoy are not triggered effects. They have a point of initiation but are not optional to use. A trigger is by definition an optional effect. Desperate Looters (SA) and Seaside Urchin (TTotH), for example, are triggered deck discard effects.

Also where's the Baelor Blacktyde (TIoR)? Seriously, if you're gonna play the annoying mill game you might as well go complete jerky.

My mistake on the triggered effects portion. You're still milling - just not able to capitalize on Corpse Lake using those cards. Baelor is part of the Oldtown Cycle. If we go there... we may as well go Maester's and then things get complicated for newer players. Trying to keep it pretty easy to build and use. And, yes, Mill is annoying. But that's Greyjoy's bailiwick - question for the day - which is more annoying: Choke or Mill?

I've never played against Choke (no Winter CP available). Mill is irritating even as Targ or Bara since you can discard far more cards than you can reasonably recur. Baelor is worth the price of one CP. He's extremely good even without the immensely annoying event blocking.

Save other effects like Baelor Blacktyde, I still think that Mill is ineffective on its own.

In a regular game you draw, what, half your deck? So there's 30 cards in there that you never see. If you mill those cards statistically you're still drawing just as well. It only SEEMS like you are getting screwed, but you're not actually being hurt.

So you mill a Renown character. What if that guy was on the bottom of the deck? You're still not drawing it. You're just one card closer to what you wouldn't have otherwise drawn. Mill just makes it seem like they are hurting you, but again, I don't think so.

Now if there's effects like Baelor, then yes, mill is painful. And of course, milling is better in melee as you have 2 or 3 times the likelihood of a favorable discard. On the whole, however, the effects gained by the discards are much more powerful than the mere act of discarding itself. If discard were powerful on its own, then you would see people running things like Frostfang Peaks in a non-mill specific deck. But that would be ridiculous, so nobody does that.

Yep - Baelor is an excellent addition to the deck. Annoying as heck when an event in hand has now been milled. Increases your "dead" draw. Hopefully we'll get to see a fully fleshed Mill theme in another article that isn't just targeting beginners with a limited card pool.

Save other effects like Baelor Blacktyde, I still think that Mill is ineffective on its own.

Well, I'm not saying discard alone is everything - hence the reason for Corpse Lake and other items that try to take advantage of it. The game is about power grab - without that - you can discard someone's entire deck and still lose. You have to have cards that take advantage of that discard or you have to have cards that grab power on their own. Baelor adds a Choke effect to the Mill - so that's great.

Don't discount the psychology of it though - seeing great cards hit your discard pile is painful and can cause your opponent to make rash choices (or even to forfeit - it's happened).

As far as which one is better, that really depends on how the deck is structured - I think that, to a certain extent at least, pretty much any theme can be played well in the right hands as long as the deck was well-built; for annoyance, I'd agree that mill isn't that bad. If your deck is balanced then losing a bunch of cards shouldn't really hurt you that much. If it's a combo deck that's perhaps different - for example, I built a deck around the Painted Table/Varamyr combo and managed to get all 3 copies of the Painted Table discarded from my deck before I drew any, effectively killing the deck. But for a more typical, 'Jaime'-ish deck, the idea is to use redundancy and make sure that to an extent it doesn't matter what you draw. In that instance, mill doesn't really have any real effect on the opponent (unless you've got stuff like Nagga's Hill, Baelor, Visenya's hill and so on). It can still be good for you through your Corpse Lakes, Euron Crow's Eyes, Theon Greyjoys and the like, but it doesn't really bother the opponent. Choke, on the other hand, is in almost all circumstances incredibly frustrating to play against. I'm honestly not convinced it's actually a better deck type, but it's definitely the more annoying of the two in my book.

I played against @doulos2k and this deck, vs my maester's deck. It is a strong deck, was an intense discarding game, I would play more defense till his Euron would leave from my Turncloak & if not for some combo's I made (esp with Support of Harlaw (KotS)) I probably would of lost, but always worth another battle.

I agree with the above poster who said that Baelor Blacktyde (TIoR) is a must for a mill deck. Discarding a Paper Shield (QoD) can be pretty devastating to your opponent if done early. I also think that Iron Fleet Raiders (MotA) is a great card in a heavy mill deck. Yes, they're allies, but they are also eligible for any "Ironborn" or "Raider" buffs in your deck. On top of that, if your opponents have to discard the top card of their deck two or three times each round, they're going to be pretty reluctant to voluntarily mill their own deck even more to reduce Iron Fleet Raiders' strength.

guys the point of the article is to give some advice and an overall idea on how to expand Greyjoys without spending too much. It's not about building the best Mill deck, it's obvious that you can build a better deck buying all those packs you are mentioning.

I think everyone realizes the point of the article, but the discussion is the natural extension of that idea, especially considering that the author includes a section titled "Other cards worth mentioning that we're putting in the deck".

New theon doesnt trigger the lake.

Great article and really useful comments. Just what I was looking for!

Just commenting on the effectiveness of running a Mill deck. I've built a "pure" Mill deck which I affectionately call my Greyjoy Clown Deck - every card is either discarding from deck or have effects that trigger on discard. My meta played yesterday and we ended with a 5-player melee game (doesn't happen often) and I thought it would be an excellent test for my deck. Maybe no one really took it too seriously, but I actually ended up milling down everyone's draw decks completely. Raiding fleet x 2, Motley Crewman, Frostfang Peaks played on setup etc certainly helped. It was a lot of fun (for me ).