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Forging the Chain - Being Competitive in Your Meta

Small Council Forging the Chain TinyGrimes

Being Competitive in Your Meta (or Getting over your fear of Proxies)


Welcome back to another installment of Forging the Chain. This week I'm going to discuss a topic which is critical for newer players, fielding competitive decks for your meta. Depending on the group of players you play with, this can be accomplished in different ways. If you are playing with a few friends and you each have a core set and one house box, go ahead and build the best deck you can from that limited pool. I've taken this approach with a number of games and it has been quite fun. However, after a while the limited aspect of the game became rather boring and we moved on to other games. If you are playing with a group whose goal is to play the best decks you can and improve your skills, you are going to need access to all of the cards, and that's what the remainder of this column will focus on.

The most obvious way to acquire all the cards is to buy them all. If you are going to take this approach I highly recommend buying them in bulk. You will often see people on the FFG trade forum selling entire collections. You may also find people selling their cards in larger quantities on Ebay. However, I would not recommend this approach to a newer players, unless that player has oodles of extra cash. For you have no way of knowing how long you will stick with any game which you just discovered. I suggest making sure you plan on sticking around long term before making such a large investment.

A second option is to play exclusively online via OCTGN until you can isolate a deck you want to play and then attempt to acquire all the cards in your deck. However, this is difficult as singles are not easily purchased. You will essentially be isolating which chapter packs contain the cards you need for your deck, and I can assure you it will be many of them. Also, you are limiting yourself to playing exclusively online while you try to determine what you should purchase.

The third option is what I recommend: buying what you can afford and using proxies for the rest. Let me start by saying I realize many newer players were turned off by that last statement, but please bear with me as I elaborate why proxies are necessary. I'll begin with my own experience. When I started the game, I bought one core set and the Stark house box. I built a terrible deck with it that I hoped would be just competitive enough to learn the game. I joined our local group of guys for some games and promptly got whipped. In addition to being new to the game, everyone in my meta owns every card and builds high quality decks. Moreover, one is a world champion and many others have either won or placed in the top four in Regionals. It was clear that a deck made of such a limited card pool just wasn't going to cut it. So, I began looking at the chapter packs to determine what I needed to buy to be competitive. I quickly realized I had to purchase a bunch of chapter packs and those locked me into one deck which I was building with no experience with the game. I was at a bit of a loss. What was I supposed to do now?

Thankfully, I noticed one of the top level players was using a proxy. So, I asked him about it and he informed me that while he owned every card, he had many decks and some used the same cards. So, he had to use some proxies. After further questioning it became clear that since singles are not readily available, proxies are perfectly acceptable, except in tournaments. The next week I built a deck online and then made proxies for the cards I did not own. I printed out about 40 cards for the deck. Yes, this is a staggering amount of proxies in one deck, but it helped me make a reasonable deck. I still lost most of my games, but I was able to have better cards and more answers for other good cards.

Ok, so you are still not convinced you should use proxies huh? Let me lay out in a more straightforward manner why you should use them.

1.) I'm not advocating not buying the cards. FFG has produced an excellent game and I think you should strive to purchase every card. However, unless you are independently wealthy, a gradual purchase may be necessary. I suggest buying every pack as it is released, one core set, and the house box for the house you are using. Then try to purchase packs here and there which supplement your decks. For me, this was easy. I started playing a lot of maester decks and bought the maester cycle. This provided me with about 45 of the cards for my deck.

2.) Everyone uses proxies. This is not Magic where some people make their living off of selling singles, and proxies are frowned upon. In AGOT they are encouraged. If your play group has not come around to their use, please have them read this article or send me a message.

3.) Even players who own every card use proxies. Samwell Tarly is a critical card in any season deck, and there is only one of him in his pack. So, if you want to build a Greyjoy choke deck and two summer decks are you really going to buy six packs of The Raven's Song just to acquire those six copies of Samwell Tarly? Of course not, you will buy two packs and proxy the rest.

4.) Two critical chapter packs are completely unavailable. In order to truly learn this game you will have to play season decks and the black and white ravens are gone. So, you will have to print them or never play (or learn how to play against) critical decks like Greyjoy Winter, Martell Summer, etc.

5.) In order to improve, you need to learn how to build and play tier 1 decks. To be honest, this is simply not possible without owning nearly all of the cards. You may be able to cobble together an effective deck that competes with most tier 2 decks, but tier 1 decks are just too efficient. In order to truly compete in this game, you must be able to pilot a tier 1 deck and know how to play against them. If your meta only plays tier 2 decks, you will be in for a rude awakening when you encounter a slew of tier 1 decks at a major tournament.

Making Proxies: I create a Word document with .5 inch margins on all four sides. Then I search for the card on Card Game Db and mouse over the name. I right click on the image that appears and copy it. Then I paste it into the Word document. Next I right-click on the image and choose format picture. I click on the size tab and make the height 3.45". I'm able to fit 8 cards per page. I then bring the file to my local copy shop and have them print it, making sure scaling is off. Voila, beautiful color proxies.

Well, hopefully I have convinced you to build the best deck you can. There's nothing I enjoy more than facing a high quality deck, by someone who has scoured every card searching for the most efficient use of their resources. Until next time keep improving!

Tiny Grimes recently migrated over to AGOT, in January 2012. Although he has not played the game long, Tiny spends far too much of his time playing and thinking about the game. He has played in two tournaments, placing first in a 15 person local event and 3rd in the first regional of the 2012 season (32 person event - Kingdom Con).
  • Rave, Reager and Prydain like this


30 Comments

I agree with you. I'm making proxies for the core set cards, as long as I'm playing with my friends I find no reason why I should buy other 2 core sets in order to enjoy the game more; this way I can see if it will be worth it in the future to invest more.
What do you find the best way to make proxies is? Are you printing out the card images in color and sticking them in sleeves? Are you just putting a scrap of paper in there saying what it does?
I added a section near the end with my procedure for making proxies. My preferred method is to get nice one's printed at a copy shop. It costs less than a dollar per page and I can fit 8 cards per page. Then I put a card I'm not using in a sleeve and drop the proxy on top of it.

Sometimes I don't have time to run over to the store and I just type the text into Word. But those are difficult and annoy other players sometimes. Because most people are visual creatures and associate all the stats with a particular image. However, it can be funny watching a world champion say "wait what does that card do. Oh it's ..."
    • Reager likes this
I've done a combination of printing off images from a word document at home or scribbling on a piece of paper the name of the card. Both ways are placed in a sleeve with a Crossroads since I have plenty extras of those.The printed proxies are the ones used more frequently like Samwell.
Well, I agree with proxies in some cases; but, I'm afraid I'm a bit a naysayer here. I do understand that purchasing every card early is expensive (and agreed that it's unwise to invest in something until you know you can commit to it). That said, I can only advocate the use of proxies for cards that are not readily available. Call me a legalist if you want.

If you want to use certain cards and they can be easily purchased, then I say buy them. If you are unable to purchase the cards then borrow them or try and build decks without those cards. That isn't meant in a harsh way at all - but if the cards can be easily purchased, I really think they should be.

I can't agree with the assessment that one must learn how to play a Top Tier deck in order to improve. I think a player can easily improve without the use of proxies. The problem of building a deck with a limited card pool is a real problem, but it actually is a good challenge and will do more, in my opinion, to improve someone's deck building skills than printing off a proxy will because they have to solve the problem and look for contingencies - in some cases there aren't any contingencies and you have to learn how to play around your deck's weaknesses. There are a good number of players out there who don't use proxies at all and work to build their decks with the pool that they have and they're actually quite competitive, honestly (especially in a local meta).

If someone is working to become tournament worthy... well, proxies aren't allowed at tournaments, so is it really helping you to use proxies? Again, I have to say no.

Please know that I mean no disrespect here - I just respectfully disagree with Tiny on this one.
    • Kennon, samuellinde and OKTarg like this
Doulos I'm glad you weighed in here because I think discussion will help illuminate my points more. Unless you are able to buy a large number of cards or play in a local meta full of new players, I don't think you can be competitive with an extremely limited card pool. I also don't think new players should rush out and spend 200 dollars on the game. I fully agree that borrowing cards is a good option, but this is only a one day option. Most players only have 3 of every card and therefore they are not able to loan cards out long term.

If you want to become a higher level player you must learn to play with and against good decks. Yes, you may be able to excel in your local meta with a tier 2 deck because the others in your meta are playing tier 2 decks, but this doesn't mean you've become a topflight player. A good example of this is the Fresno meta which, as I understand it, is a newer meta with a limited card pool. They are having a good time with the game and looking to improve. They hosted a regional and SoCal brought 6 people to the event who all play with and against tier 1 decks. As expected the top 4 was all SoCal players.

Proxies aren't legal at tournaments, but for these events you borrow the cards you need or go on a spending spree. I find myself buying 2-3 chapter packs before every tournament and then borrowing about 12 cards that I still need.

Proxies are a good thing, use them!
    • OKTarg and BtrLuckyThanGood like this
Thanks for clarifying Tiny - definitely good points there. My concern is... where do you draw the line? At which point should players be expected to buy cards? Or has it been your experience that players tend to purchase cards as soon as they can even if proxies are readily available and accepted?

I mean, I've only been playing for 5 (almost 6) months now and I get that proxies can certainly help make the game more enjoyable for new players, but I'm concerned about hurting the game. I want more people to invest in the game so it continues to expand and there's a concept of people in your meta who have put money into the game and they work to expand the pool of players because they've invested.

Again, my experience is limited, but my fears are that proxies could encourage abuse. If you've not found that to be the case, then I concede. I've considered allowing proxies for the seasonal packs already so that people can try their hand at the seasons, but I'm very hesitant about letting it expand from there.
You are recommending the use of proxies. I think you should then be able to answer the questions that come with the use of them. Where do you draw the line and why? Why shouldn't I be allowed to use proxies at tournament level? Why should the guy who wasn't able to get a certain "rare" card be put at a disadvantage when you are looking for the player with the highest skill? Even the LCG model has obviously cards that are hard to get.

Let's look at the playgroup level. I definitely don't feel very rich. When I am playing against newbies that use decks with 50% proxies why should I bother to buy new cards? Why should THEY even bother to have a single original card? You just described how convenient it is to get all the images from cardgamedb.

It seems to me you are taking the "proxies don't hurt anyone" approach. I evaluate the game before I spend money on it therefore I use proxies. If this approach is fine I think I should "evaluate" video games also before buying them. They are darn expensive and I have only limited resources.
I wonder why FFG is so stubborn not to provide us with PDFs of the cards. Would be good for the game cause they would expand the player base. More players in the environment means more competition and all of us would become better players cause we would face more different decks.
As ridiculous or polemic these questions may seem I think you should have really good answers for every single one of them.
I am from that Fresno meta and can say some of the players would benefit from having used proxies. In my opinion it would be great if the whole meta had been not just for a newer player either as someone with all the cards and top tier deck won't be getting to know how to play that deck as well as he can. Learning what you have to fear from other decks is also pretty important so I would be happy to let people use proxies in particular summer or winter ravens samwell tarly or carrion birds. I play a summer deck usually and if the rest of the meta does not have access to those cards I would not learn how tricky it can be to keep your raven in play or get rid of your opponents winter raven. Fortunately for me I found Octgn and got to play some players like imrahil, tiny grimes, dcdennis and learned very fast what the difference between what I had been playing in my local meta and a top tier deck was =P
    • imrahil327 likes this
Cool article. To add to the pool, I load a 200dps 8x10 inch document up in photoshop. Grab the lo-res cards from cardgamedb, enlarge them 200%, and do sort of an uncut sheet thing and print it that way. It doesn't look all that real, but is legible, and it saves on ink, which is nice if I'm not sure if I want to include the card or not.

I feel like, if you're the kind of player that needs to have tier 1 decks, you're going to go to a tournament eventually, so there's no harm in printing proxies. If you're new, this game IS really expensive to get in to, and it's no fun getting repeatedly rocked by your friends when all you have is the core set.

Also, you should never have to pay 100+ dollars for a pack. This summer/winter thing is getting ridiculous. Also, if I'm not 100% sure I want to play a certain deck in the next tournament, I'm not going to buy 3 packs for something like To Be a Wolf, just to see if I like it.

On another note, I do agree with doulos2k. Playing with what you have, and not jumping from top-tier deck to top-tier deck, can give you a more fundamental understanding of what's good and what isn't and why.
    • imrahil327 likes this
Mischraum and Doulos - You both ask where do I draw the line. Thankfully, I don't have to draw any lines. The line has already been drawn, tournaments. Put simply, tournaments do not allow the use of proxies. I also don't see proxies as an incentive not to buy cards. First, it's extremely time consuming to create them. Second, it's annoying to have to borrow cards for tournaments. I may be wrong, but I think most players would rather own the cards, especially since they are relatively cheap to acquire over time. In my opinion the use of proxies actually encourages people to buy more cards. If you are content building decks with a limited card pool what is your incentive to go buy more cards? Buying one more pack isn't going to help that much. However, playing with the entire card pool is a strong motivator to eventually buy all the cards.

Having said all that, if I ran a tournament I would allow proxies for any card that is not readily available. That means I would allow proxies of cards like the black raven, white raven, maester of the sun, etc. However, I don't run tournaments so that point is moot.
    • Amuk likes this

I mean, I've only been playing for 5 (almost 6) months now and I get that proxies can certainly help make the game more enjoyable for new players, but I'm concerned about hurting the game. I want more people to invest in the game so it continues to expand and there's a concept of people in your meta who have put money into the game and they work to expand the pool of players because they've invested.


Doulos - I think this is an especially important point. The best way to get people to invest in the game and expand your meta is by making the game enjoyable for them. If they have a much more limited card pool than the more experienced members they are at a double disadvantage. It's hard enough not having the same level of experience and skill, but not having cards to make a competitive deck makes this situation unbearable. I know for me, had proxies not been allowed I would have quickly dropped the game. I was simply not able to plunk down the 500 dollars needed to compete in my highly competitive meta.

Think of proxies as a way to both grow your skill as a player and grow your meta.
    • BtrLuckyThanGood likes this
Great points all around.

Mischraum, are you Ulrich from GenCon? If so, we had a chance to chat for a while between games. I was probably wearing the SD Chargers football (not soccer) jersey. If not... my bad!

Regarding proxies at local tournies, DeathJester and I usually secure some sort of prize support from FFG--typically one of the LCG Night game kits. We'll then post in the tourney rules/advertisements that "since we have official prize support from FFG, no proxies will be allowed." I think many other tournament organizers (and players) follow this same logic.
Where my group and I draw the line (besides tournaments) is on stuff that is either not currently available, plots, or on cards which don't come 3x in a pack. We'll normally let someone play with a ton of proxies for the first few games when testing a deck but eventually the cards need to be bought and real cards need to be used. The only exception is the Plots. None of us can be bothered switching out plots from deck to deck (I keep 10+ decks built at any one time) so proxies are welcome there just for convenience sake.
    • samuellinde likes this
Yet another reason to use proxies is that they give you the ability to play, and become familiar with, tons of different decks. I played a Greyjoy maester deck for about a month straight in preparation for my first regional and bought nearly ever card for the deck. However, as soon as that regional was over I decided to swear off maesters for a while and try everything under the sun. Unfortunately, I am missing many critical cards for other decktypes and so, I've had to print off a ton of proxies. If proxies were illegal I would be stuck using the same deck until I could afford to buy a bunch more packs.

Where my group and I draw the line (besides tournaments) is on stuff that is either not currently available, plots, or on cards which don't come 3x in a pack. We'll normally let someone play with a ton of proxies for the first few games when testing a deck but eventually the cards need to be bought and real cards need to be used. The only exception is the Plots. None of us can be bothered switching out plots from deck to deck (I keep 10+ decks built at any one time) so proxies are welcome there just for convenience sake.


I can get behind this. I think it supports the spirit of what Tiny is saying about making the game fun and learning how to be competitive (which is an idea I understand and support), but it puts a solid expectation that you really need to be buying the cards.

Right now, in my meta, I hold the only full set of cards, so I tend to make a lot of walk on decks for people to learn with. I try to make them as competitive as possible - but that's me. They're my cards and I have no issue with helping people along. That said, even with my complete set, there's no way to give everybody what they'd really need. I have a lot of Carrion Birds, but I can't support 4 decks worth. Proxies could be helpful in these cases.

In the end, I'm arguing a case I can't support. By building decks for people to play every game night - I'm doing with real cards what Tiny is suggesting with proxies. They've got the same incentive as anyone else to not buy any cards - ever since every time they show up there's a deck waiting for them to play. I think I'll suggest to my meta that we take up what Darksbane's group does.
For me it is about quality of proxies more. If it looks good I allow them. In tournaments any proxies are not allowed of course. But friendly games anything goes for me. Paper slips just saying card name or black&white is a no go always. I don't feel I am losing anything by allowing good proxies anyway, it is opposite for me even that I don't use proxies.

Great points all around.

Mischraum, are you Ulrich from GenCon? If so, we had a chance to chat for a while between games. I was probably wearing the SD Chargers football (not soccer) jersey. If not... my bad!

Regarding proxies at local tournies, DeathJester and I usually secure some sort of prize support from FFG--typically one of the LCG Night game kits. We'll then post in the tourney rules/advertisements that "since we have official prize support from FFG, no proxies will be allowed." I think many other tournament organizers (and players) follow this same logic.


Yes, I am Ulrich from Gen Con. If there was a foto on your profile I could recognise you as well...

Regarding proxies in tournaments don't think what I write is far fetched... I am TO for a Call of Cthulhu Regional in Munich in about 2 weeks and was asked by one of the players who already attended some tournaments for this game if proxies were allowed.
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Deathjester26
May 17 2012 10:31 PM
Bronson, I know this has never come up (because we rock and have prize support for everything), but even if we had a tourney without prize support, I'd be against proxies.

I'm not saying anyone would ever doctor a proxy, but I know one way to make sure they don't ;)

As for proxies in casual games, sure. I don't even care if they're just pieces of paper as long as all of the important text is there, and readable.
I've found proxies very useful for testing. I'm going to my first regional this weekend, with a very limited cardpool - at the time I made my deck I had the core set, 5 house expansions (not Baratheon), the Oldtown cycle and a couple of Tales of Champions packs. I knew I was going to have to get some more packs to build a competitive tourney deck I was comfortable with, but had no idea what packs to buy, so I made proxies of the cards I was missing, tested out different ideas, then settled down with the deck I wanted, ordered a few more packs to cover the cards I was missing, and watched the proxies slowly get replaced. If I'd had to buy all the various packs with all the various potential cards I was considering in, then...well, I wouldn't. I don't have the money to do that. I'd have either had to guess a few packs for what might be the most key cards and probably end up missing things I needed, or far more likely I wouldn't've bothered and might not have even bothered going to the regional. So my prolonged used of proxies over the course of about a month and a half (in other words, about a third of the total time I've been playing the game) has led to me buying a bunch more packs.

There's, of course, a group of people who will see it as "I don't have to pay to play the game" with no intention of buying any of the cards they're proxying, but there's no stopping those people really. As long as it's frowned upon, it doesn't matter that much, because their alternative isn't going to be "buying the cards for realz", it's going to be "I'm gonna go find something I can exploit for free". For the majority of the rest of us though, playing with proxies is a motivation to go and get the cards for real. Anyone who wants to play at a tournament level will have to anyway, and, at the risk of being slightly OCD about it, it just looks better.

Beyond that, as was mentioned, they're very useful for plots. I have, like, 8 decks, and 2 copies of Valar Morghulis. Either I'm gonna have multiple decks compromised, I'm not going to be able to have the decks built at once, or I'm going to proxy Valar. It's a pretty simple choice, really.
    • Amuk and doulos2k like this
One thing to keep in mind is that no one who advocates the use of proxies for testing/casual play is advocating the use of proxies in place of buying cards. As Tiny has mentioned, the use of proxies encourages people to buy cards because they become invested in certain cards that fit their deck. If someone was showing up with only 1 or 2 decks consisting largely of proxies and never buying any new cards, then that's a potential issue. Proxies should always look to be eventually replaced by the actual cards as people's budgets allow. If all you do is proxy and never buy new cards, that will be frowned upon. Proxy to build the best deck you can, and slowly replace those proxies with actual cards. Does your deck still have some proxies a week before the tournament? When it comes tournament time, I've found AGOT players to be very generous about loaning cards to new players, or even to experienced players who share a card pool.

The one other side that some experienced players mentioned is when you are building 10 different decks, you need proxies since you can't support 10 full playsets.
    • imrahil327 likes this
Yeah - this discussion has helped me wrap my brain around the issue a bit more. I think it would be pretty obvious if someone were abusing the ability to use proxies. I, myself, have run into the problem of deck building because I build most of the decks for my play group and, frankly, I only have so many cards. Proxies would most certainly help me to ensure parity in all the decks for the sake of balance. So, looks like I'll be making some proxies for Sunday night's playgroup. :-)
    • imrahil327 likes this
While I am patently against proxies in tournament play, I do agree that they are a must for casual games. For new players, proxies are key to learning rules, card interactions, and getting a feel for what decks are good/ bad, etc. Especially with the Winter/ Summer debacle, proxies are a must.

While I do understand the argument for allowing proxies in tournament play, I can't get behind it. From a sales standpoint, it's silly for FFG to allow proxies in tournament play, but more than that I feel that there's a certain cheapness to it. Imagine a Regional Championship decklist that had (proxy) written after a bunch of cards. It's not an elitist thing, in fact it bothers me when card availability is a limiting factor for players, I just don't like the idea of proxies in a big tournament setting. People can always borrow the real cards if they need to.
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TheAvenger154
May 20 2012 01:25 PM
@OP

I am trying to make some proxies and I don't really understand your method! Could you please clarify a little more your method? First of all .5 margines?

Second, I didn't get what you did with the right click on the name of the card but i just saved it in my computer and then dragged in Word.

Then I changed the height to 3.45 but the width? Also, I wasn't really able to fit 8 cards in a single page. Could you possibly tell me exactly the " of your pages?

Thanks in advance!

PS: Great post, convinced me it's no crime to use some proxies!
Using Word I go into File --> Page Setup. In there I make top, bottom, left, right all 0.5 margins.
Instead of saving each picture, I just right click copy on it, but either way would work.
In Word, when I resize the height to be 3.45 it resizes the width for me to 2.41.

This fits 6 vertical cards on the page. Then I create two more and using the picture toolbar I rotate them 90 degrees. This will allow 2 to fit at the bottom.

When printing them, make sure scaling is turned off.

That should give you 8 cards per page. Any followup questions feel free to ask.