Joe From Cincinnati's Concerns about Targeted Kill

Great article, Joe! It summarized the issue really well and the addendum was a great read, too.

What also concerns me about the prevalence of easy kill-effects ist that they lead to NPE for potential new players. Only recently, I played some newbie who really got frustrated when his big dudes got poisoned left and right. When I told him, that´s how things go in Westeros, he didn´t like that either, and pointed out that he would rather play a game where you can rely on your cards staying on the board longer so that you could have a long-term strategy for your deck that does not amount to "get to 15 with whatever I have left".

Great article, Joe! It summarized the issue really well and the addendum was a great read, too.

What also concerns me about the prevalence of easy kill-effects ist that they lead to NPE for potential new players. Only recently, I played some newbie who really got frustrated when his big dudes got poisoned left and right. When I told him, that´s how things go in Westeros, he didn´t like that either, and pointed out that he would rather play a game where you can rely on your cards staying on the board longer so that you could have a long-term strategy for your deck that does not amount to "get to 15 with whatever I have left".

It breaks my heart every time I play a kill card on a new player haha.

I actually just had a game last week against a fairly new player. He doesn't have time to play on a weekly basis, he doesn't really follow the release of every single card and mostly net decks right now, due to his inexperience.

He was playing Stark Fealty and I was playing my NW Fealty. He had Greywind and Robb Stark, both unduped. He was frustrated because, with a Ranging Party and an Old Forest Hunter on the board, he would have to commit both to in order to win the military challenge to get anything out of it, but if he did, he'd have no defense if I were to defend with just one, kill the hunter and retaliate with the ranging party. So he passed challenges in order to protect his characters.

Well, then I did an unopposed intrigue challenge with my steward and killed Robb with Tears of Lys anyway.

He was really upset because he said, if he had known that Robb would die anyway, he would have just attacked. But then I showed him that I had Watcher on the Walls in my hand, with a gold and 2 rangers standing. So if he had, they would have died anyway.

And he just scooped and said very frankly that he's never going to figure out this game.

I felt really bad because I know he's still trying to grasp the game and I didn't want to be the reason he gives the game up. I technically could have Tears'd Robb the last turn but didn't want to because I figured he'd likely quit if I did.

So, I definitely get what you're saying about the new player thing. It can become a little frustrating for a new player to feel like their best characters are constantly dying. As I said in my article, there are a pretty good number of ways to stop targeted kill, but a lot of them require situational awareness and knowledge of the card pool, two things new players may not necessarily have.

Thanks for reading and commenting though .

Very good example! Characters that a new player likes from the story, that may even be the reason for him looking into this game, get crushed by an overabundance of easy kill effects. I think soft control would suffice, like kneel, icon removal, or Shadow Tower.

And while nowadays every deck focuses on killing dudes (plus, as I said above, getting to 15 with what the opponent left standing), other strategies that the designers had on their list, like defending the wall, or growing strong as Tyrell, or even rush, are having a hard time, which makes the game a less rich experience than it could be.

But I think the game will evolve further as new cards become available; but for now, we have enough (easy) kill effects, IMHO.

Also, it should be clear that this is not a game for everyone. Some people will not like it, no matter the diversity of possible strategies. But we should remind ourselves that it was a goal of the relaunch to expand the community.

It breaks my heart every time I play a kill card on a new player haha.

Words Words Words

There are a lot of chances for new players to get butthurt, especially when they see favorite characters get wrecked, and maybe even more so when the player is a Stark fan.  Can't get too upset about it.  That said, there are three decks I'd hate to see as a new player if I were thin-skinned, and you played one of them. The other two are Bara kneel (despair) and Greyjoy rush when it takes longer to shuffle and set up than it does to play the game.

About the article. Would you be as concerned if NW got some of that easy kill? Do you think that the simple kill effects diminish the identity of individual factions? More importantly, do you think that the game's economy allows players to effectively recover from simple kill?

Very good example! Characters that a new player likes from the story, that may even be the reason for him looking into this game, get crushed by an overabundance of easy kill effects. I think soft control would suffice, like kneel, icon removal, or Shadow Tower.

And while nowadays every deck focuses on killing dudes (plus, as I said above, getting to 15 with what the opponent left standing), other strategies that the designers had on their list, like defending the wall, or growing strong as Tyrell, or even rush, are having a hard time, which makes the game a less rich experience than it could be.

But I think the game will evolve further as new cards become available; but for now, we have enough (easy) kill effects, IMHO.

Also, it should be clear that this is not a game for everyone. Some people will not like it, no matter the diversity of possible strategies. But we should remind ourselves that it was a goal of the relaunch to expand the community.

Aggro and kill decks are definitely dominating the meta right now. So many winning decks right now focus on either Mirri kill or FSoW kill. But, as long as FFG reigns in the kill effects, I think other deck types will eventually show through. It's just a matter of a small card pool that is making kill so strong right now. A year or two from now, when each faction has 4 to 5 options at the 5, 6 and 7 slots, targeted kill won't be as impactful as it is now. But I don't see the aggro approach going away any time soon.

There are a lot of chances for new players to get butthurt, especially when they see favorite characters get wrecked, and maybe even more so when the player is a Stark fan.  Can't get too upset about it.  That said, there are three decks I'd hate to see as a new player if I were thin-skinned, and you played one of them. The other two are Bara kneel (despair) and Greyjoy rush when it takes longer to shuffle and set up than it does to play the game.

 

 

About the article. Would you be as concerned if NW got some of that easy kill? Do you think that the simple kill effects diminish the identity of individual factions? More importantly, do you think that the game's economy allows players to effectively recover from simple kill?

In terms of the game's economy, I have noticed that they are releasing essentially no non-plot economy that isn't limited. Sure, you have the Training Grounds, but that doesn't really solve the problem of if a big 6 cost character were to die.

You can tell they are being very cautious about economy, as a 5 gold plot is considered "good" with anything higher having a relatively large downside (Supporting the Faith and Feast for Crows have 4 reserve, Marching Orders can basically only marshall characters, Trading with the Pentoshi gives your opponent gold, Fallen from Favor sacrifices a character.). Without a King's Road, a Rose Road or Tywin/Arbor, it requires a lot of reducing locations/characters to really consistently play high cost characters.

I was hoping they would release a few more economy neutral locations by the end of this cycle to facilitate playing these larger characters, but it did not end up happening. That may also be a contributing factor to the danger of these targeted kill characters. My 7 gold can be wiped out by your 6 gold cost character. Then my 6 cost the next turn, my 5 cost the turn after that etc.

I am obviously biased when it comes to the Night's Watch and, subjectively, I would love to see some targeted kill come out of that faction. I don't like having to fit in Tears of Lys just to handle the Robert Baratheons and Stannis' of this game, but its hard not to without any other reliable way to get rid of them. But it all depends on how easy it is. I'd like to see a card that could kill a character if they lost a challenge on offense, just as a deterrent from having to deal with 1 strength power challenges being lobbed at me just to kneel my ranging party, but that could become a bit too powerful relatively quickly.

I don't think simple kill effects dimisinish the identity of individual factions as much as they augment them. Tyene doesn't make Martell any less a control house. It just makes them a significantly better control house. With Targ, their general theme is making their opponent fear challenge math to the point of passing challenges in the right scenario, this may be in the same vein with Mirri. I am more concerned with how much these simple kill effects augment the factions and if they are inevitably going to overshadow the other factions due completely to the fact that they have some of the strongest abilities in the game.

I think you are right on in your analysis of efficient cards.  The pure efficiency of Tears of Lys brings it to the power level of many 1.0 cards. The most expensive card in the game right now is 8 (King Robb's Host) and for 1 gold, a Tears can kill it.  That's a fantastic trade for the Tears player.

On the other hand, I've got to argue with your core premise.  While only Lanni has Treachery, every house can put 6 cards in their decks to counter Mirri, Illyn, and Tyene: 3x Milk of the Poppy and 3x Nightmares.  It seems like these cards are coming all at once, but in the same 2 pack window as these repeatable kills we've received Nightmares, Iron Mines, Barristan, Blood Magic Ritual, and Close Call.

The meta will soon adapt to maximize the value of playing these saves, text blanking, and dead-to-discard effects, but until they do kill will rule the day.