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Jon vs Robb: Initiating Abilities / Marshaling Cards
Jun 14 2016 06:15 AM |
mplain
in Game of Thrones
rules
The Jon Snow + Robb Stark interaction is confusing for many players. Here is how it looks like:1. You initiate Jon Snow's ability.
2. You sacrifice a Stark character to pay the cost.
3. You react to the sacrifice with Robb, and stand each character you control.
4. Now you have to choose a target for Jon Snow's ability. All your characters are standing already. If there is a unique Stark character on your opponent's side of the board, you need to choose and stand him!
Many AGoT players didn't realize that Reactions can be used in response to the payment of costs, before the resolution of effects. Some were confused by the fact that the Robb's reaction might lead to Jon's ability not having a legal target. I'd like to look in detail at the process of initiation of abilities as presented in the rulebook, and clarify certain steps. Hopefully this detailed sequence will also explain other confusing interactions, e.g. Arbor + duplicates, Arianne, Melisandre + Seen in Flames + Treachery, etc.
- If you are triggering an ability that would bring a card into play from your hand, at this point you must reveal that card. (relevant: Arianne Martell, The Queen of Thorns, Old Bear Mormont, Dothraki Sea, Hear Me Roar, As Hard as Winter)Initiating Abilities / Marshaling Cards
When a player wishes to marshal or play a card, or initiate a triggered ability, that player first declares his or her intent (and shows the card to be used, if necessary).
- Is there any reason you *cannot* marshal or play this card, or initiate this ability? (e.g. Marching Orders, Winterfell)The following steps are then observed, in order:
1. Check play restrictions: can the card be mars haled or played, or the ability initiated, at this time?
- If you intend to marshal, put into play, or take control of a unique card, is there another copy of that card in play that you own or control, or in your dead pile?
- If the card has the Limited keyword, or the "Limit/Max X times per [period]" text, has the limit been reached?
- Does the effect of the ability have any potential to change the game state by itself? (For effects with the word "Then", take into account only the pre-Then part of the effect). Assess only direct consequences of the ability's effect, do not take into account the payment of costs, or any triggered abilities on other cards.
- If the text of the ability contains the word "Choose", are there legal targets, and can they be affected by the effect of the ability?
- After this step, the attempt to marshal/play a card or initiatiate an ability is registered by the game, and is counted towards the limit for Limited cards and abilities with the "Limit/Max X times per [period]" text.2. Determine the cost (or costs, if multiple costs are required) to marshal/play the card or initiate the ability. If it is established that the cost (taking modifiers into account) can be paid, proceed with the remaining steps of this sequence.
- If any part of a cost payment is prevented, once all costs that can be paid are paid, the process of initiating the ability or marshaling/playing the card immediately ends without further resolution. (The card remains unplayed in its owner's hand.)3. Apply any modifiers to the cost(s).
4. Pay the cost(s).
- Interrupt and Reaction abilities may be used in response to the payment of costs, before the effects of the ability initiate.
- If there are no legal targets for the abilty at this point, the process of initiating the ability or playing the card immediately ends without further resolution. (The event card remains unplayed in its owner's hand.)5. Choose target(s), if applicable.
- Interrupt and Reaction abilities may be used in response to choosing targets, before the effects of the ability initiate. (currently there are no cards with such triggering conditions)
- If you marshaled a card, at this point it leaves your hand and enters play. Reactions to a card being marshaled or entering play can be triggered.6. The card is marshaled/played, or the effects of the ability attempt to initiate. An interrupt ability that cancels this initiation may be used at this time.
- If there are any choices to be made during the resolution of the ability's effects, you must make them before the effects attempt to initiate.
- After all choices are made, the effects of the ability attempts to initiate, and can be cancelled with The Hand's Judgement, Treachery, etc.
- Even if the effects of the ability are cancelled, the ability is considered to have been used (the event played).
- All effects of the ability resolve simultaneously, and Interrupts or Reactions to any of these aspects share their corresponding timing windows.7. The effects of the ability (if not cancelled in step 6) complete their initiation, and resolve.
- After the effects of the ability have resolved, or if they have been cancelled, the ability is considered to have been used. If you played an event, it is discarded. Corresponding Reactions may be used. (relevant: Melisandre, Tower of the Sun)
- Reactions to the ability's effects and reactions to the ability being used (or the event played) share the same timing window. (e.g. after the opponent plays Put to the Sword and kills you Stark character, you can react with Tower of the Sun, gain 1 gold, then spend it to play As Hard as Winter)
- emptyrepublic, scantrell24, daenarys and 4 others like this
19 Comments
I love articles that look into the very details of the rules and their interactions. Not sure how this relates to Jon and Robb though.
The very first words of the article: "The Jon Snow + Robb Stark interaction [...] "
I added that only after his comment
I laugh very laud to myselft when I read or hear someone saying that rules are "more simple" now than in 1.0.
I wish people would stop calling this a "ruling". It isn't. A ruling is a decision in an ambiguous situation. There is no ambiguity here. This is just the application of the normal rules to a specific situation. All the excitement is mostly 1.0 veterans realizing fully just how different the timing structure of 2.0 is on a microlevel. Because the macrostructure of the two versions of the game is so similar, we thought we could just wing it. This shows us that we have to unlearn and relearn this game much more thoroughly than we thought. Wipe the old muscle memory, and build up new one from scratch. This is not us switching to a new sword. This is us getting our sword hand cut off and having to learn to fight lefthanded.
I am a prime example of this myself. Only now, with this Robb/Jon Snow example, have I come to understand all this talk of "Triggering Conditions" in the RRG. And this is what it comes down to. Us vets need to stop thinking in terms of "effects", and learn to start thinking in terms of "triggering conditions".
Also, I agree with Stukov. The new timing is not simpler at all. It is in fact a lot more granular. The problem of the old rules set was never that it was overly complex. It wasn't. The main problems were inconsistent templating, insufficient attention to detail in the writing of rules documents, and the inexplicable refusal of large parts of the player base to learn and apply simple flowcharts.
You're right. Fixed!
You should add "from an area you can see, but your opponents cannot" (for now, it concerns only the hand, but the plot deck would fit). It doesn't apply to areas all players can see (discard and dead pile - Euron, Aeron, Yoren) nor to areas no one can see (deck - I Never Bet Against My Family).
Thanks. I think currently the only such game zone is your hand, right? Unless we get a way to bring Arya's dupe into play.
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In the Jon and Robb scenario, it is interesting that the ability is not considered to have been triggered in the case your opponent doesn't have a Stark.
It means you can resacrifice and restand someone with Jon later in the same round. In fact, you can sacrifice quite a lot of people with Jon.That seems correct. Well played!
I would assume that the ability would fizzle... but then there's no way to know if the same card got discarded, or its copy... That's a good one! I'll ask the maesters.
That's what I thought initially, but I've been told that after you pass Steps 1 & 2, the initiation attempt gets registered by the game and counts towards the Limit once per round. Yes, the ability is not considered to have been used, but the initiation attempt counts towards the limit.
The trick not to break your brain here is simple: for cards with Limited and "Limit/Max once per...", it's not the successful resolution that counts toward the limit, it's the initiation attempt.
You can also see your plot deck (while your opponent cannot). And your revealed plot is in play. So revealing a plot puts it into play (but no such card effect exists for now). As for Arya's dupe, it is already in play, but it entered play from your deck.
Fascinating.
But just to get it right, at which point does the target of Jon´s ability switch from Jon to Sansa? And why exactly is this possible? I read the article twice and still don´t get it.
In Step 1 you check if you have a legal target.
In Step 5 you choose the target.
Funny how choosing a character to be brought into play with Arianne's ability is done in Step 0-1 and cannot be changed afterwards.
SO what would happen about the "choose and stand a character" part when Jon triggers Rob, your whole board stands and you aren't playing against another Stark
nobody stands right?
If Jon's ability finds no legal target, it fizzles and nothing happens.