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Ours is the Fury - Against the Stream
Sep 16 2013 05:10 AM |
WWDrakey
in Game of Thrones
Small Council Ours is the Fury WWDrakey
That past CP Cycle brought a load of really good cards for Baratheon, and by the looks of it, the following Cycle is only continuing from where the previous one left off. So, in a way, it’s a good time to be playing Baratheon. At least, so it would seem on the surface.
However, there’s a small issue with that, a looming cloud on the horizon, if you will. Despite the new cards we’re getting, Baratheon hasn’t really moved upwards in competitiveness a single notch. This has made me wonder a bit, and I believe that a part of the puzzle came to me when looking at some of the results Kennon posted from GenCon.
So, what can we see from those results? Nearly half of the Baratheon decks were running the Black Sails Agenda, usually for the ages old Val + The Laughing Storm combo to hole up the leaking draw-hole in our House's side. These are probably somewhat based on a deck run by former World Champion Greg Atkinson to win the Missouri Regionals (decklist can be found on Agotcards). Something else we know from that Tourney is that those decks… to be blunt, did not do very well.
So, the real question related to this is: Why?
A short treatise on Black Sails
Warning: This article differs somewhat from my usual fare of articles, being strictly Jaime-minded and very focused upon a largely subjective gloves off -kind of discussion of a particular candidate for the best current competitive Baratheon build. I am not asserting that Black Sails is bad, unplayable or anything of the sort. Just trying to point out, why I don't think it has the potential to stand toe-to-toe with true Tier 1 decks like Targaryen KotHH or Martell Quentyn.
There’s a specific-kind of epidemy with Baratheon decks, and many of the cards from the previous CP Cycle have only added to it’s outbreak. One of gimmickyness. And on a competitive sense, it’s largely to blame for our House not making an impact even with a greatly improved cardpool. How do you know your deck suffers from it then? Usually, it’s quite easy to tell. It goes like this: you’ve got a really neat trick/combo, which blinds you to the fact that in order to run that combo, you’re sacrificing on not only the individual power-levels of the cards in your deck, but also forcing your hand with regard to in-game choices. As an end result, specific cards in your deck will form very concrete weak spots, such that if you’re opponent is able to deal with them, you’ll deck will be hit extremely hard.
Moving back to the subject of Baratheon Black Sails, especially with the Val + TLS combo, I believe it to be a prime example of such a deck. This will take a bit of explanation, since it’s clearly not obvious.
Now, there’s three ways to float with Black Sails:
- Run a tight 60-card deck, and hope that you can finish the game before your 30 card deck runs out. Pretty much this means committing yourself to an all or nothing Rush.
- Run a 60-card deck with methods of ‘extending’ the duration of your deck. Examples (for any House) would be: Benjen Stark, Barristan Selmy, Shores of the Summer Sea and even stalwart cards.
- Run a much looser 70-80 card deck, and hope for the advantage from the tutoring provided by Black Sails to offset the inefficiency.
Having a drawback is all fine and good, as long as the advantage provided by the Agenda is worth it (again, think TLV). However, most people who’ve played with Black Sails will be able to tell you that a good competitive Control deck will be able to reduce the number of searches you get with Black Sails to… well, zero. So, in that matchup the only benefit that you’re left with is the single search of a Character from Naval Reinforcements. Now, after the most recent FAQ, decks with strong Control elements are back in a strong position - be it Martell No Agenda/Quentyn, Targaryen KotHH, Lannister No Agenda or Tunnels of the Red Keep. Once again, every deck needs to consider how it will hold up against Control-elements.
So, the next question to look at is: Is a single-search at the beginning of the game worth an Agenda-choice? If House of Dreams has proven us anything, then it’s that the answer to this is usually no, with some exceptions (for HoD these would be Tunnels of the Red Keep and Dragonpit). Other Agendas, or even going without one, just provide more bang for the buck.

Let’s move back to our old friends Val and Laughing Storm. As I mentioned, this combo is an old one, and if it were enough to vault Baratheon into being competitive by itself… it would have done so the moment TLS got off the restricted-list. The problem here is that the combo is just too fragile to function as a primary draw engine, since it’s based on two unique characters remaining in play and not being controlled.
What I’m trying to say is that: One Threat from the North and Val discards, one Venomous Blade and Val dies, one bounce of TLS to hand via Ghaston Grey and an ensuing intrigue… and there goes the combo. One Enslaved and Val starts providing cards for your opponent. One Valar, and if both characters weren’t duped, then there goes the neighborhood. One Flame-kissed and you never even got a single draw off. The list goes on.
These issues are of course further exasperated by the fact that Baratheon is currently pretty good at keeping Baratheon characters in play, but has very few ways of resurrecting Val from the dead/discard piles.
Collecting the pieces
Remember my definition of gimmickyness? Really neat combo - check, the loss in overall deck/card efficiency (due to BS) - check. What about the in-game choices? Well, there’s the fact that Naval forces to overcommit, the fact that you usually have to search for the second piece on round 1, have to try to protect the pieces, have to play them instead of playing something that drives your deck’s main focus… Looks like we got that one as well - check.
Such gimmicky combo-based decks were much better before the previous FAQ, since the popularity of The Long Voyage was keeping the amount of Control decks small, and TLV decks themselves were bad at effectively interrupting their opponent, since the larger decksize made running and drawing specific counters much more difficult. But now those slim 60-card stacks are back, while influence-based Control decks have more efficient searching (Desperate Measures) to boot. The times are just not the best for black-sailed stags.
One of the problems with gimmicks are that there is the ever tempting option of starting to protect them, at all costs. While there’s nothing wrong with running a few always useful Paper Shields or maybe a Retreat or two, the more energy you spend on trying to protect your combo with conditional counters or protections, the more it dilutes the actual functionality of your deck. With Baratheon this goes even further, since building those counters in is also adding to your draw-reliance and dropping your deck's speed that much more. Again, you end up trading away pure efficiency due to the over-reliance on a single combo. Taking a page from the classic ‘DC Meta’ style of building decks - a good deck is made of only good cards.
In search of a truly competitive Baratheon build
However, the issue here runs a bit deeper. Out of the box, all Baratheon decks are awfully prone to being interrupted, due to the very advantage that playing Baratheon provides - jaw-dropping characters and power gain. Building a competitive Baratheon deck is not just about slapping on card advantage to make it work, it’s a lot more about finding ways to make your deck less susceptible to interruption without diluting it.
And that’s really where Black Sails fails for Baratheon. It just adds more stuff for your opponent to interrupt, instead of trying to strip your opponent from being able interrupt you, or wielding such speed and efficiency that your opponent can’t keep up. Coincidentally, for a while now, two of the best competitive decktypes for Baratheon have been Knights and Wildlings. They offer those exact things. And if you’re really in love with the Val and TLS combo, you can also run them in either of those two decks - to good effect, one might add. Now, if you're still dead set on building a truly competitive Baratheon Black Sails, it's probably much better to drop the gimmick and focus on finding ways of mitigating those weaknesses, without losing any of the build's inherent strengths - aggressiveness and speed.
I need to reiterate that this article is very much a personal opinion, so I’d really like to hear your thoughts on the matter. Do you know of a way to make BS resistant enough to Control? Do you have another solution to working with Black Sails without losing deck efficiency? Is there a better, more robust, combo that can be achieved via Naval Reinforcements? Or do you have another deck in mind that could be the competitive Baratheon build in the environment? Let me know in the comments below!
- Ratatoskr, Amuk, Archrono and 9 others like this
26 Comments
Wildling deck with vigilant Massey's Hook is a much better option.
As for Val draw engine - it's nice but extremely fragile. It seems to be it's better to run no draw at all than sacrifice so many deck slots AND your Restricted spot for an engine that breaks so easily.
Thanks
Greyjoy Black Sails, despite the shared agenda, is not a comparable deck. They play completely differently.
I don't really know what this means. Do you mean focusing on winning dominance so you can trigger effects?
Bara Dom is currently my favourite deck for melee, because it is so unexpected and very hard to shut down if you aren't up against any kind of hard control (and this is melee ... so you aren't) but I have no idea how it could ever hope to compete even bottom tier in joust.
I think Bara Seasons in general is pretty nice; I'm excited to see some new Winter decks with Song of Ice...
You talk about a Valar hitting, or a flame kissed killing Val, or Venomous Blade killing her or whatever but what i don't hear you talking about are ANY of the multiple ways that you can stop those things from killing your combo. All it sounds like to me is that your just dropping Val/Laughing Storm into play and expecting them to stay in play without any support to keep them in play. Retreats, Asshai Initiate, Fiery Kiss, Mel's Scheme, Benjen Stark are all ways you can keep the combo alive and going against anything your opponent can toss at it.
Oh, and all of those cards are great even outside of the combo. Its not like your really hurting yourself by playing them. Retreat is great just for the simple fact that it is a card that doesn't save a character but keeps them from actually hitting the dead pile. Fiery Kiss is great as a end game closer or to abuse Dale with. Mel's Shceme is amazing with Asshai Initiate to bring a character that died recently back into play. Benjen is actually pretty decent by himself because he has stealth to help force through naval challenges.
As for them controlling naval icons, i'm personally fine with that. I've had hard control decks control my naval icons but the major flaw in that is that they can't keep the power grabbing characters under control. Its a double edged sword. You control the naval icons and the power grabbing characters win you the game in 2 turns. You control the power grabbing characters and they search for the tool box cards they need to break out of your control. Its all about a balancing act. I haven't had any problems with Burn or any other hard control deck. Most of the time i run them over in just a few turns and with the big hard control deck taking it hit in 2 weeks ((Martell KotHH because of Song Of Ice)) i don't think there is any right to call Bara BS less then a t1 deck.
Oh, and as for Greyjoy BS having saves and cancels over Bara Bs, i'll refer to the list of recursion/save cards above and then toss in the fact that i play 2 ((working on fitting 3)) Paper Shield and 2 Hands Judgement in my build. 5 Cancels isn't anything to laugh about.
- ~ 10 events (Paper Shield, Hand's Judgement, Retreat, Fiery Kiss)
- ~ 10 characters (Asshai Initiate, Benjen, Val, TLS)
- 1 plot (Scheme)
(not mentioning Dale, since I'm only referring to cards that aren't auto-include to begin with!)
That's 33% of a regular 60-card deck - all to enable the running of that 2-card draw engine... and that's not taking into account all the Smugglers you'll need for the BS! And, having Asshai Initiate in there means that you'll have to run something near a ~80 card deck anyway (due to the massive anti-synergy between BS and Initiate, a combo which works a lot smoother in any other Bara-build to be honest)... I've played with Asshai Initiate enough to know that you can easily burn yourself to 20 cards left in your deck in a standard game - when playing a good draw engine and the Initiate.
Now, I'm not arguing that this build of yours can't withstand Control anymore! If any deck essentially uses 20-33% of their cards to meta against a specific decktype, then it would be really odd if it did not hold it's own against it. However, with that much protection in there, you'll be quite a bit slower than any other Baratheon-build, so you'll have a completely different set of weaknesses.
Intuitively I'd guess that you'll be so much slower in the water than any other Baratheon build you face that they can out-rush you easily... and Power Behind the Throne is probably worse, since none of your protections stop Enslaved (search for Cressen might work here though) or provide ways of getting rid of Cersei. You're also diluting the Aggro in the deck quite a bit, which may leave you open to other Aggro decks.
You should know my definition of a proven T1 - it's purely based on actual Tourney Results. Anyone can have a hypothetical T1 deck, but I can never accept it as such before it has survived Swiss/Eliminations in several Tourneys successfully. There tend to be subtle differences in metas always, which can make or break a single deck when transitioning to a larger stage.
Currently, GenCon and two large European Tourneys are all we have, and Baratheon BS has been nowhere to be seen (except the list of participants I linked for GenCon!). Even if no-one can directly/accurately pinpoint what the weakness is with the current versions of the deck, that doesn't negate the fact that it probably has one, or otherwise it should be doing better. Especially considering the recent flood of new T1 cards into the House!
I guess the fact we could agree to disagree on is: you think that current versions of the BS deck have not been successful because it has not protected the TLS/Val Combo enough, while I think that the issue is the Agenda+Combo choice itself? In a way I can see the point you're trying to make, will be interesting to see what Worlds/Stahleck show us.
This is actually the current list i'm playing with.
Deck Built with CardGameDB.com GoT Deckbuilder
Deck Built with CardGameDB.com GoT Deckbuilder
Bara BS3
House (1)
House Baratheon (Core) x1
Agenda (1)
Black Sails (RotK) x1
Character (43)
Carrion Bird (ASoS) x3
Asshai Initiate (KotStorm) x1
Lyseni Pirate (TCC) x3
Maester Cressen (Core) x1
Marya Seaworth (KotStorm) x1
River Runner (TGF) x3
Willas Tyrell (VM) x1
Val (RotO) x3
Varys (SaS) x1
Banner for the Storm (CtB) x2
Brienne of Tarth (PotS) x1
Dale Seaworth (AToTT) x3
Royal Entourage (TTotH) x3
Salladhor Saan (TPoL) x2
The Laughing Storm (GotC) x3
Khorane Sathmantes (TCC) x1
Melisandre (RotO) x2
Robert Baratheon (Core) x2
Ser Davos Seaworth (TGF) x2
Stannis Baratheon (VM) x2
King Robert's Host (TWot5K) x2
Margaery Tyrell (AToTT) x1
Location (19)
Aegon's Garden (Core) x3
Black Betha (TGF) x1
Dagger Lake Galley (TCC) x1
Flea Bottom (TGM) x1
Massey's Hook (ASoSilence) x1
Narrow Sea (Core) x3
River Row (QoD) x1
Seat of Power (WotN) x3
Street of Silk (LotR) x1
Street of Sisters (Core) x1
Street of Steel (Core) x1
Smuggler's Cove (KotStorm) x2
Event (7)
Retreat (Core) x3
Paper Shield (QoD) x2
Fiery Kiss (ODG) x2
Attachment (1)
Bastard (LotR) x1
Plot (7)
Breaking and Entering (LotR) x1
Manning the City Walls (CD) x1
Marched to the Wall (LoW) x1
Men of Pride (THoBaW) x1
Naval Reinforcements (RotK) x1
Melisandre's Scheme (RotK) x1
Valar Morghulis (Core) x1
There are a few things i'm considering. I do feel like 70 cards is to low, so i'm looking at upping the count to about 74. I'm thinking about adding in a extra Milk Of The Poppy, 1 or 2 Dissensions ((i don't like Farwynds, Greenblood Merchants, or Castellans)), and a 3rd Paper Shield. There is also some talking about adding in a Red Queens Faithful and 1 Fleet to give a few more targets for Manning The City Wall. Over all though, Laughing Storm + Host + 3 2 claim plots gives the opponent a lot of trouble dealing with the deck. Not only are they having to figure out how to defend against 3 2 claim plots, they also have to figure out how to slow me down while i have a Host that is protecting my Power Challenges and Laughing Storm that is protecting my hand. Like i said above its all about a balancing act. You have to find the right balance between protecting your combo and not diluting the theme of the deck. I actually think this is very close to what that should look at.
#BOOM, roasted!