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Quill & Tankard Regulars - Issue 12

Small Council Quill & Tankard Regulars Ire Ratatoskr WWDrakey

"Why is it then, that we study all these codices and scrolls, all this ancient wisdom? What use is learning and scholarship in a world where the wicked slay the righteous, where the sword triumphs over the book? There is power in arms, certainly, and power in blood, but what power is there in knowledge?"

"Heed this now, novice, and take it to heart. Do not scoff at that which can be gained from books and old lore, for it is a weapon of a different kind, and not less powerful than those of steel, in the end. The wise will choose their battlefileds with care. The scholar cannot hope to win a contest of arms, and so he will scheme to best the enemy in a struggle not of might, but of mind. He will, in short, seek to outwit his foe. Here, let me have another cup, and I shall tell you..."

Beware The Sphinx - Outwit

Beware the Sphinx is a series of articles concentrating on important cards with several peculiar, complex or unintuitive interactions. An emphasis is kept on both new and competitively relevant cards. Remember, the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.

My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer and I have my mind... and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone if it is to keep its edge. That's why I read so much Jon Snow.
- Tyrion Lannister

Outwit (TIoR) is unique among LCG plot cards. Plot effects are usually either passive or constant effects. Outwit (TIoR) is the only plot in the current card pool that has a triggered effect, more precisely a cancel response, on it.

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Responses on plot cards are generally no different from responses on other cards. You will remember that the effects of Agendas (including Responses, like the one on The Siege of Winterfell (LoW)) cannot be cancelled. There is no such restriction on plot cards. That means that the Response on Outwit can be cancelled by effects that cancel Responses, like He Calls It Thinking (PotS), or triggered effects in general, like Seasick (KotS) or Alannys Greyjoy (ODG).

Also, the response on Outwit (TIoR) can be triggered as often as its play restrictions are met and costs can be paid. If you are playing a Melee game, for example, and all three of your opponents flip plots with When revealed effects, you can cancel them all, provided you have enough Learned-crested characters. Likewise, if a plot is revealed via a card effect, e.g. with Bungled Orders (OSaS), Bran Stark (Core), Margaery Tyrell (ASitD) or one of the Rookeries, you can cancel those as long as Outwit (TIoR) is your currently revealed plot card, provided you can pay the cost of kneeling a character with the Learned crest. However, if a card effect lets you resolve the When revealed effect of a plot card in a player's used pile, like Archmaester Marwyn (MotA), you couldn't cancel that with Outwit (TIoR), because Outwit (TIoR)'s play restriction ("of a plot card just revealed") isn't met.

So far, so unspectacular. Outwit (TIoR) seems straightforward enough. So, why is this worthy of a Beware the Sphinx then? It is not so much Outwit (TIoR) itself, but rather its interaction with Valar Morghulis (Core) and the light it sheds on the timing of save and cancel responses in this game, which is unexpected by and often baffling to many players.

There are quite a few plot effects that are worth cancelling with Outwit (TIoR). There's Manning the City Walls (CD), At the Gates (GotC), City of Lies (CoS), Many Powers Long Asleep (RoR) and many more. But the Big One, the one prize most players aim for when they include Outwit (TIoR) in their plot deck, is Valar Morghulis (Core). Not only do you deprive your opponent of the reset they need, they are also stuck with the crappiest stats on any plot card in the game. If you manage to cancel the other guy's Valar Morghulis (Core), that's often game.

However, when these two plots are flipped and the Valar Morghulis (Core) player's heart sags, while his opponent's features light up with malicious glee, odd things happen. Something that is usually disregarded by players, because in most cases it doesn't make any difference at all, ends up mattering a great deal: the order in which responses are triggered. When you resolve Valar Morghulis (Core)'s When revealed effect, there's the usual chance to play save and cancel responses between the initiation and the actual resolution of the effect. Since we're in a Framework Action Window, the first opportunity to play a save or cancel response is with the First Player. Then that opportunity passes clockwise around the table until all players have passed consecutively.

Sounds simple. So, what's the big deal? Well, it is probably best to illustrate this with an example:

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Both players are tied in the initiative count, but Martell has fewer power tokens overall and wins initiative. She makes Stark First Player. Stark has the first save/cancel response opportunity. He is now facing a dilemma: He doesn't want to burn his saves for nothing, because he expects Martell to cancel Valar Morghulis (Core) anyway. But if he passes, Martell might just pass too. In that case, both players have passed consecutively, and there's no more chance to trigger save/cancel responses - Valar Morghulis (Core) would go through, the opportunity to save characters would be lost, all Stark characters would be killed and Bodyguard (Core), Nymeria (Core) and the dupe on Robb Stark (LoW) would be discarded, unused. Basically, the Stark player would have to use one of his saves to put the onus of deciding whether to trigger a save/cancel response on Martell. If she triggers Outwit (TIoR), Stark gets to keep two of his three saves. She might also get greedy, though, and decide to pass on triggering a response for the moment in order to lure Stark into burning another of his saves. This is risky, though - Stark might decide to pass on responses, too. It would be too late to use Outwit (TIoR) then. Again, Valar Morghulis (Core) would go through, and Stark would lose two characters he could've saved, but he would get to keep one, and he might just decide that's worth it. So you see, the two players engage in some kind of bluffing game - "if I pass, will you pass too?". They will have to measure both their and their opponent's potential gains and losses against each other when it's their turn to trigger a response or pass.

This bluffing game does not only occur when Valar Morghulis (Core) meets Outwit (TIoR) either. The same thing happens when you play Westeros Bleeds (Core) and your opponent has a usable Alannys Greyjoy (ODG) in play. NB: In this case, since we're in a Player Action Window, the first response opportunity would be with the player to the left of the player who triggered Westeros Bleeds (Core), not with the First Player.

And it does happen with regular responses too. Imagine this situation: Greyjoy (FP) declares a challenge against Stark. Stark defends with two characters. Greyjoy has a Scouting Vessel (KotS), Stark has a Frozen Outpost (LoW). Naturally, Greyjoy wants to see which character gets buffed by the Frozen Outpost (LoW) to use Scouting Vessel (KotS) on that character. But if he passes, and Stark passes too, the opportunity to use Scouting Vessel (KotS) at all would be lost.

Another example: You have marshalled already. Its your opponent's turn to marshal cards. You have Dissension (QoD) in your hand. Your opponent plays a Lannisport Weaponsmith (Core). You want to maximize the impact of your Dissension (QoD), so you're waiting to see if your opponent plays a more threatning Ally. But if your opponent doesn't marshal anything anymore and passes on actions, the marshalling phase ends immediately and my chance to play Dissension (QoD) is lost. We're aware that few players play it like this, but the fact of the matter is that this is how it ought to be played according to the rules. And maybe we should all try to get into the habit of playing this by the book.

So, what might we have learned from this?
  • The order in which responses are triggered matters
  • Saves and cancels happen during the same step and can be triggered in any order
  • The rule that the response opportunity ends after both players have consecutively passed can lead to tactically demanding situations in which the timing needs to be precisely observed.
  • Not only taking an action but also passing on an action should be made explicit, at least when we're getting near the end of an action window.
So...all clear? We tremble in anticipation of your comments.

Dear Archmaester

Dear Archmaester collects interesting, unusual and unexpected rulings from the FFG Rules forum.

Q: Dear Archmaester,
when I post rules questions on the FFG rules board, I often feel bad because I think my question must've come up before, and I hate to pester the good folks there with stuff they surely have answered time and time again. Really, I want to do my research before posting, but the Search function on the FFG board is sooooo bad, I never find anthing. Can you tell me what to do?

A: That's easy. Use Google. Type in the string of keywords you wish to inquire after, and follow that up with site:www.fantasyflighgames.com. Voilá!
Example: You want to know what happens when Crown of Meereen (QoD) and Crown of Winter (LoW) are in play at the same time. You use the FFG search function with the keywords crown meereen winter. Result: Nichts. Ei mitään. Ingenting. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
You type crown meereen winter site:fantasyflightgames.com into Google. Result: A boatload of relevant threads. All the information you ever wanted. Because yes, this has come up before.
Try it! We dare you!
(Thanks to the mighty Darksbane for this tip)

Questioned by the Conclave

Questioned by the Conclave is a series of quizzes for our readers, loosely based around the topics of the Issue in question. Correct answers will be posted in the comments, after enough readers have had their chance of testing their knowledge. The difficulty of the questions will vary from those directed at Apprentices, to those best suited for Archmaesters.

1. Your opponent flips At the Palace of Sorrows (VM). You flip Outwit (TIoR). You actually want the When revealed effect from At the Palace of Sorrows (VM) to go through, but you don't want them to resolve the When revealed effect of the top River plot in their used pile. Can you use Outwit (TIoR) to cancel only the resolution of that secondary When revealed effect? Please substantiate your answer.

2. You flip Pulled from the Rhoyne (VD) as your seventh plot. Your sixth plot was Valar Morghulis (Core). Your fifth plot was Shores of Ny Sar (VM). What happens?

3. I have an Acolyte of the Flame (TWH) in play. You play A Game of Cyvasse (ACoS). I kneel the Acolyte of the Flame (TWH). What's her effective STR in relation to A Game of Cyvasse (ACoS) - 2 or 3?

4. As a player action, before challenges are declared, the Lannister player plays Restrict and Restrain (MotA), and both players choose characters. After Lannister declares a Power challenge, the opponent ambushes in Queen's Knight (TWot5K). Can Queen's Knight (TWot5K) be declared as a defender?


Antti Korventausta (WWDrakey) is a self-proclaimed Finnish AGoT philosopher and nitpicker, who also used to practice Quantum Mechanics, but found that it paled to AGoT in both interest and complexity. As a Stahleck regular and judge, he sometimes has oddly vivid dreams of understanding portions of the game. In AGoT, he'll play anything as long as it's suitably twisted... often ending up with something that has horns on it.

Helmut Hohberger (Ratatoskr) started playing AGoT in September 2010 and has never looked back (although his wife has, longingly). As a German, he loves rules - and I mean *loves* 'em. Try triggering a Response at the end of a phase on his watch, and he'll probably invade your country. He has actually read the FAQ, and was made a judge at Stahleck 2011 and at various other events. He sometimes answers rules questions on boardgamegeek and the FFG rules board. Some of his answers haven't even been contradicted, corrected or expanded upon by ktom - there is no higher accolade for a rules board morlock.

Every Maester needs a Raven on his shoulder. As a Finn, Iiro Jalonen (Ire) got pulled under the waves by Krakens years ago, and has never looked back. A self-inflicted Shagga and active member of the global AGoT community, he has always strived to know the rules of the game, in order to make them do ridiculous things.

  • Zaidkw likes this


14 Comments

1. No, because copying the "when revealed" effect does not count as revealing a new plot card, which is the trigger to Outwit's response. You either cancel the whole package (the wording uses "then", so if you cancel At the Palace's "when revealed", the second part will not trigger).

2. Pulled from the Rhoyne "when revealed" puts your topmost dead character on top of your deck, and then Shores of Ny Sar put it into your hand. Valar is not a River plot, so does nothing to the equation. Shores is still the topmost River in your used pile, even despite not being the actual topmost card. The fact that Pulled is your last plot doesn't matter, used pile disappears after the plot resolves.

3. 2 STR - compare Dreadfort ruling.

4. It can, since the lasting effect created by the event is only relevant for the cards that were in play when it was played.
Flint got it right I think.
Except 2. When you revealed you 7th plot, other plots go into unused pile, there is no "topmost" plot in your used pile
1. I would say "no." Similar to bringing a dupe of Meera Reed out of shadows, the "then" clause checks to see if the antecedent resolved successfully, and if it did, the rest happens. (In the dupe's case, it does not.) Outwit's opportunity for save/cancel response would have to be all or nothing.

2. Used plots do not go back to your plot deck until after resolution of the newly revealed plot.

3. I would say I chose a character with 3 str to kneel.

4. Queen's Knight was not in play at the time to be designated as a character not chosen.
@Gildor - the Core set rulebook clearly states that the used piles goes to unused pile only after the currently revealed plot fully resolves.
*edit* and, yeah, wrong on #3. Strength only gets checked when you get to that point, after characters are knelt.

using that handy "site:www.fantasyflightgames.com" search option:

http://www.fantasyfl...=4&efidt=580160
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slothgodfather
Sep 28 2012 03:48 PM
1. "When Revealed" of the revealed plot is the trigger. If that resolves successfully (not canceled by outwit) then there is no opportunity to cancel the post-then effects. Similar to trying to cancel Meera

2. Without a moribund state for the dead pile the top character is immediately returned to the top of the deck. after that is successful you trigger the other river plot and put that card back into hand. (With the knowledge this was your next plot after the VM, I would suggest making sure you put the character you want on the top!)

3. While she is 3 STR when standing, GoC has each player kneel a character and then checks the STR on those characters. At the time the STR is checked, she is STR 2.

4. It is worded slightly differently, but I think this is similar enough that it is actually a lasting effect. (similar to The Viper's Rage (TftRK)) If so, then it doesn't matter if the character wasn't in play when the event was played. The lasting effect states that only those 3 chosen characters can participate in challenges this phase. So I don't think it matters if there are new characters added to the field.
1) The secondary effect does not satisfy Outwit's response's play restriction, so you either cancel the initial effet or you let both happen.
2) Used plots return to the plot deck only after any "When revealed" effect on the last one resolve. So when resolving Pulled from the Rhoyne (returning a character from the dead pile to the top of the deck), Shores of Ny Sar is still in the used pile, so its effect goes off as well, putting the character in question into your hand. Then, all plots except for Pulled from the Rhoyne return to your plot deck.
3) I don't know.
4) It can't, because it isn't one of the chosen characters.
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slothgodfather
Sep 28 2012 05:40 PM
I actually wouldn't think the 6 used plots would reset until it was time to play a new plot (whether that is through a card effect or standard plot action). This then still allows you to play effects on that turn 7 with card restrictions of "with x type plot in your used pile" but I could be entirely wrong on that. I haven't looked up any particular rules on that.
OK, here's the answers to the quiz. All questions have been answered correctly, albeit not by everybody ;) Congratulations!

I will sum up:

1) No, you can't do that, for two reasons: First, Outwit's play restrictions are not met; it can only cancel the When revealed effect of a plot card just revealed. Second, you can't cancel the post-Then part of an effect separately, you've got the cancel the whole effect or nothing at all.

2) The card from the dead pile goes directly on top of your deck and will go to your hand when you resolve Shores of Ny Sar. There is no Moribund for going from one out of play area to another. After your plot resolves, your used pile becomes your new plot deck. The Core Set rulebook (page 11) is unambiguous about that. That means you don't have a used pile for the most part while your seventh plot is revealed - something to take into consideration if you're thinking about the To Be A Critter events.

3) As others have said, at the time STR is checked for Game of Cyvasse the characters are kneeling, so it's 2 in this context.

4) Restrict and Restrain does create a lasting effect, but one that only applies to characters that were in play when it resolved. It is different from The Viper's Rage or LoW Robb Stark's ability. The key here is the word "choose". Only characters that were in play during the resolution of R&R were eligible to be chosen or not chosen because of the effect. Characters that come into play later can't be tagged "not chosen" by an effect that has already been fully resolved at the time they enter play. At least that's how ktom argues in this thread, and we think it's convincing.
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slothgodfather
Sep 29 2012 10:02 PM
The other difference is viper's rage targets all characters of that player. Since r&r targets a subset it seems logical that new characters are outside that subset.
4/4, I'm on fire =).
    • Kennit likes this
Silly "I'm obviously a new player" question: so when the save or general response option comes around the table, each player is only allowed to make ONE save or geneal response before it goes back around the table?

(I get that saves and general responses happen in different points in the player action/framework event structure, I'm generalizing a question relevant to both).
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slothgodfather
Sep 30 2012 06:38 AM
Much the same way you have to take turns using player actions, yes you also take turns triggering responses. Once both players pass there is not an option to trigger another.
I've just been made aware (by ktom, who else) that my opening statement was in error. Outwit is by no means the only plot with a triggered effect; there's also Unconventional Warfare (ACoS), which is so staggeringly bad nobody ever considers running it - which was probably why it slipped my mind.