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Quill & Tankard Regulars - Issue 6

Small Council Quill & Tankard Regulars Ire Ratatoskr WWDrakey

Quill & Tankard Regulars - Issue 6

This week in Quill & Tankard regulars we prepare our readers in their studies for the Valyrian Steel Link, by having a look at some good old magic. Also, due to the popularity of our Quiz on Meera Reed, this Issue contains our first official installment of Questioned by the Conclave.

Beware the Sphinx - Pyat Pree

Beware the Sphinx is a series of articles concentrating on important cards with several peculiar, complex or unintuitive interactions. An emphasis is kept on both new and competitively relevant cards. Remember, the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.

Together with Direct Assault (KotStorm), this card was one of the first claim replacement effects to hit the AGoT LCG. Being cards from the game's history as a CCG these effects had established rulings in place – some of which were quite surprising for LCG players. So, all the way from The House of the Undying, here's Pyat Pree.


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Pyat Pree's ability states: If you win a challenge in which Pyat Pree attacked alone, instead of the normal claim effects, choose and kill 1 character controlled by the losing opponent.

In game terms this means that as long as the conditions are fulfilled (If you win a challenge in which Pyat Pree attacked alone) the normal claim effect of the challenge in question, regardless of it's original type, is changed to the attacker choosing and killing exactly one character controlled by the losing opponent.

All fine and good, so where's the magic? Let's have a look:
  • The new claim effect does not in any way depend on the claim value of your plot. Thus using Pyat Pree with a Valar Morghulis (Core) or Focused Offense (QoD) will have the same effect of killing one character.
  • If you win a challenge with several attacking characters, with Pyat Pree one of them, the claim is not modified in any way.
  • If your opponent does not have any characters to kill, you do not get the original claim. Rather similar to trying to steal power from a player with no power on his or her house card.
  • Pyat Pree (like any other claim replacement effect) does not in any way affect the type (Military, Power or Intrigue) of the challenge, just the effect it has on the game.
  • If Red Vengeance (PotS) is used to change the player who must pay the claim, Pyat Pree's ability will still function. The attacker will just choose a character controlled by the player chosen to fulfill the claim (in a Joust, that will always be himself/herself; in a Melee it can also be another player).
  • When used against a player with Twist of Fate (APS) revealed, both of the effects are trying to replace the original claim effect. In such a case, the effect applied later will take precedence, and since the first player decides the order in case of a conflict, they will be able to decide which effect happens.
Ok, some interesting effects there already, but mostly just smoke and mirrors. Now for the real thing that makes him a Sphinx...

Pyat Pree's ability changes the game mechanics of claim - it does not work directly on characters. This means that his ability is not affected by any kind of immunity currently on characters in the game – be it immunity to character abilities, immunity to triggered effects or even immunity to card effects. He can just as easily kill Cat o' the Canals (RoW), The Red Viper (PotS) or Joffrey Baratheon (TftRK) as he could kill a lowly Bastard in Hiding (KotStorm). The only thing that stops his ability are cards which cannot be killed such as Beric Dondarrion (IG) or any noble character with a The Power of Blood (Core) revealed.

Dear Archmaester

Dear Archmaester collects interesting, unusual and unexpected rulings from the FFG Rules forum.

Q: Dear Archmaester,
my puny Targaryen opponent has made my The Conclave (CbtC) scared with Dragon Fear (QoD), will Leyton Hightower (GotC) encourage my conclave for some dragon chasing, without a fear of them being used as common claim fodder?

A: Yes. As your conclave is immune to attachments thanks to Leyton Hightowers ability, it will not be affected by Dragon Fear (QoD). This is because it says attached character must be chosen, which means that the attachment is directly working on The Conclave (CbtC). Now, if it were to read the controller of attached character must choose it then it would not be covered by the attachment immunity, since then the attachment would be acting on the player. For further discussion, see here.

Questioned by the Conclave

Questioned by the Conclave is a series of quizzes for our readers, loosely based around the topics of the Issue in question. Correct answers will be posted in the comments, after enough readers have had their chance of testing their knowledge. The difficulty of the questions will vary from those directed at Apprentices, to those best suited for Archmaesters.

1. The Red Viper (PotS) is burned by a combination of Threat from the North (PotS) and Flame-Kissed (Core). Can you now get him back into hand with Retreat (Core)? Why?

2. You have Retaliation! (ASoSilence) revealed and are attacking (in military) alone using Robb Stark (LoW), with a Northern Courser (APS) attached. Your opponent defends, so you play Direct Assault (KotStorm) to trump their strength. What happens when the challenge resolves?

3. You win a power challenge with Hugor Hill (VM) attacking alone unopposed. However, the only character in your opponents discard pile is Cat o' the Canals (RoW). What happens?

4. What if the character in their discard pile were instead The Conclave (CbtC)?

Antti Korventausta (WWDrakey) is a self-proclaimed Finnish AGoT philosopher and nitpicker, who also used to practice Quantum Mechanics, but found that it paled to AGoT in both interest and complexity. As a Stahleck regular and judge, he sometimes has oddly vivid dreams of understanding portions of the game. In AGoT, he'll play anything as long as it's suitably twisted... often ending up with something that has horns on it.

Helmut Hohberger (Ratatoskr) started playing AGoT in September 2010 and has never looked back (although his wife has, longingly). As a German, he loves rules - and I mean *loves* 'em. Try triggering a Response at the end of a phase on his watch, and he'll probably invade your country. He has actually read the FAQ, and was made a judge at Stahleck 2011 and at various other events. He sometimes answers rules questions on boardgamegeek and the FFG rules board. Some of his answers haven't even been contradicted, corrected or expanded upon by ktom - there is no higher accolade for a rules board morlock.

Every Maester needs a Raven on his shoulder. As a Finn, Iiro Jalonen (Ire) got pulled under the waves by Krakens years ago, and has never looked back. A self-inflicted Shagga and active member of the global AGoT community, he has always strived to know the rules of the game, in order to make them do ridiculous things.
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23 Comments

1) No, because The Red Viper (PotS) is immune to events, and Retreat directly affects a character, even if it doesn't choose any targets.
2) Assuming you won initiative and so had to choose the opponent as first player, they will choose which replacement effect resolves last (so you will either choose take control of one of his locations or choose and kill one of his characters)
3) Cat o' Canals comes into play under your control, because unless specified or implied otherwise, a card's text is active only when the card is in play.
4) Unless Hugor Hill benefits from an STR bonus, The Conclave is too expensive for Hugor Hill's claim replacement effect, so you only get the power for unopposed.
    • WWDrakey likes this
These are my best guesses.
1. Since Threat from the North and Flame-kissed have conflicting passive effects when the red viper is at 0 strength, then the first player chooses whether it is discarded or killed. You would only be able to use Retreat if the red viper was chosen to be killed since Retreat specifically says instead of putting in your dead pile.

2. This to me is again a case of conflicting passive effects. Each is a replacement effect and I think the first player gets to choose whether the stark player takes control of a non-unique location or gets to kill a character by choosing the one they want to happen second since the later replacement effect takes precedence.

3. Cat o canals would come into play under the lannister player's control because she does not have immunity in the discard pile since cards do not have text in out of play zones unless specifically noted.

4. If the Conclave is the only character then you can not choose it since it doesn't cost 3 or less and you do not get the original claim.
1. The first player decides which of the effects affect him first. Discarding him would make the event not playable. His immunity doesn't protect him, because the event targets the "putting a card into the dead pile"-effect and not the character.

2. The first player decides which effect will be used.

3. She is not in play, so her immunity would not protect her.

4. It's too expensive, the "reducing" effect does not work, because you don't play it. So no claim effect could be done.
(Not reading responses already submitted):
1. Yes. Retreat changes from Moribund:Deadpile to Moribund:Hand and in neither case is the attachment going along for the ride. The event strictly speaking is not a Save effect so technically it doesn't actually touch TRV until he's out of play.
2. As stated above, the second effect overrides the first: War Horse is a passive, and so resolves before Direct Assault. Direct Assault trumps the claim. Robb Stark's ability is a triggered effect and its use was not indicated.
3. Cat's ability doesn't function while not in play.
4. Hugor fizzles because the Conclave is too expensive.
(We get a variant of #1 a lot in our local meta when No Use For Grief (DB) goes off and Daddy gets to Retreat (Core) anyway.)
1 No Red Viper is immune to events so it means in your own events too
2 The first player chooses which claim effect will be activated so if you won iniative the other player will if you lost it and you are the first player you will only sure thing is your oppoent will not kill two of his chars
3Cat is immune to cards effects so you cant take her even if you fullfil her cost
4 You cant take the conclave cause they have a cost of 5 and that is smaller than the 3 you won the chalenge with as stated in hugors ability
1. TRV is immune to events so you can't use Retreat.
2. The first player chooses which order warhorse and direct assault goes off in. The last one applied is the one you go with.
3.You can take control of Cat because her immunity doesn't work out of play.
4. The conclave is cost 5. Even if you had multiple Maesters in play it won't reduce his cost because when you look for cost on a card out of play, it is always the printed cost. So you can't take it because you only won the challenge by 3.
I think that's about enough time to let people answer. The correct answers are hidden behind the spoiler.

Spoiler
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slothgodfather
Jul 20 2012 04:47 PM
Actually, since Retreat isn't worded as a save/cancel to the kill action, and the rules state you can't change a moribund state, how does it work any different than the Response text on Griff?
The rules state that you can't enter moribund twice, however, once you are in moribund, you can change the destination.
The important part here is instead, which makes it a replacement effect... and replacement effects are the only (as far as I know) thing that can alter a card's moribund state. I think this was because the rules state that a cannot be *removed from play* when it is moribund.
However, Retreat (Core) is not trying to do that, it's just changing the moribund state from moribund:dead to moribund:hand.

If I had to guess, then I think that Griff (CD)'s ability is probably just a replacement effect, but FFG forgot to add the "magic" word that would make it one (either that, or the one that would make it a save).
Here is a quiz question for any of you:

What is the end result of this scenario?
The Red Viper (PotS) has the Maester trait and is under your control.
Milk of the Poppy (Core) is attached to The Red Viper (PotS).
Leyton Hightower (GotC) is in play and is under your control.

For fun, tell me what you think the end result is with The Red Viper (PotS).

Go!
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slothgodfather
Jul 20 2012 06:21 PM
My answer:
Spoiler
Here is my answer. This creates an infinite loop where TRV is immune to Hightower, is blanked, now get's Hightower immunity, unblanked, immune to hightower, is blanked, etc etc. I would say that he is not blanked as an end result, however is not immune to attachments either. So he could be flamed kissed but not blanked by milk.
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slothgodfather
Jul 20 2012 07:09 PM
Damn, fell right into that conundrum trap... gg Bomb.
Hehe. I generally agree with Staton, but ktom believes Milk of the Poppy stays.

"The only ones that actually conflict, though, are TRV's immunity to character abilities and Hightower's "Maesters get immunity to attachments." They are the ones that close the loop, so to speak."

Reference at this forum post: Here
huh. Well that's dumb. Screw logic.
Lol. Yeah I know. I believed that everything canceled each other out and that TRV would remain unscathed.
Actually after reading that forum post its logical only in the sense that Ktom referred to the FAQ and its ruling on infinite loops. He correctly identified that the two immunities are what cannot coexist with one another which forces you to act like they do not exist in order to resolve the situation. In conclusion A game of thrones LCG is too hard.
I would say that the true reason Hugor's ability would work is that it's a replacement effect. But in the end, the result is exactly the same.
Hypothetical Fun Quiz Question:
Pretend Hugor Hill (VM)'s claim replacement is actually a Response.

You control Eddard Stark (TTotH) and lose a challenge against Hugor Hill (VM) where he attacked alone by enough STR to choose any character you have in your discard pile.

Can you cancel Hugor Hill (VM)'s Response with Eddard Stark (TTotH) if the opponent chooses The Blackfish (LoW) in your discard pile?

Remember, this is hypothetical!
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slothgodfather
Jul 24 2012 06:43 PM
My answer:
Spoiler
Corrrrrect!