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The Grand Melee - Playing Control in Melee Part 1: Is it Possible?

Small Council The Grand Melee FireFox

Playing Control in Melee Part 1: Is it Possible?

Hello readers! After a small lapse, I’m happy to welcome you back to a brand new series of articles in The Grand Melee. I don’t know yet how many there will be but over the next few weeks we are going to look at control from the Melee point of view.

Before entering Melee-specific mechanics, let’s have a look at what a control deck is. A control deck is a deck that aims to lock-down your opponent’s options. This can be done by kneeling his characters, disrupting his gold flow, destroying his hand, etc. There are many control deck that do well in Joust and I’m sure you have already encountered one. The classic rock-paper-scissors metagame view states that control loses to aggro decks, but beats combo decks. This is somewhat skewed by the fact that most decks are typically a blend of deck types. But according to this view, playing control in Melee doesn’t seem like a good choice; let’s have a look at why.

1. Time
All the decks that I’ve presented over the months this column has been in existence were designed to win as quickly as possible. This stems from the fact that winning slowly opens you to the other players trying to shut you down. Thus, the obvious answer to that problem is to win as many power tokens as possible before your opponents can react (i.e. in one challenge). This behavior is the epitome of an aggro deck. Typically Joust aggro decks are dependent on a good setup to ensure their rush runs smoothly from turn 1. A bad setup means a bumpy ride. In Melee, thanks to the dealing plots, they are almost guaranteed to have what was missing from their deck (think Daenerys Targaryen (QoD) or Melisandre (RotO) or Robert Baratheon (Core), etc...). This means the typical Melee game will last 2 or 3 turns. This is not enough for a control deck to deploy his elements of control and use them efficiently, at least not the classical one. If you need 2 turns to put your recursive character control engine into play and running smoothly, the best you will achieve is stopping one opponent from winning. Or is it?

2. Four players
The biggest problem control decks face in my opinion though is the number of players. First of all, it means the other players can simply ignore you if they want. Say you are playing some kind of defensive-deck based around The Wall. This works in Joust because in order to win the game your opponent HAS to attack you. That is not the case in Melee though, as the other players still have two other targets each. But more than that problem, control faces a HUGE dilemma when playing against 3 opponents, namely, which card to use against whom? Many control cards have a single target. Take Flame-Kissed (Core) for instance, a burn staple, for one card you remove one character from your opponent’s board. This is the same for No Quarter (TBC). This is a decent deal in Joust, especially if you can recurse the Flame-kissed like Targ can. However, in Melee if you want to achieve the same amount of control, you would need THREE Flame-kissed. This puts you at a severe card disadvantage. And I’m not even going to mention the draw and resources needed to play those three cards. Yes, some control-cards have across the board effects that will allow you to bypass this problem, but are they enough of them and do you have the time to play them?

3. Targeting
This could be considered a corollary to the previous problem. Most control cards require you to target a character, but that character must be controlled by a specific opponent. This can limit their usefulness in Melee as you might not be able to win a challenge against the person you want to control, and as I said, they have no reason for attacking you. Effects that you can target across the board after winning a (often easier) challenge against another opponent are really most effective from a control point of view. Sadly, they are not a numerous as the ones that do not offer you a free choice of target.

4. Reputation
Finally, control players face another type of problem at a Melee table. Even though it would seem they face a major disadvantage just by playing control, the other players tend to think control is a threat. Kind of a “let’s take care of him and then sort ourselves out” mentality. In many ways that can be a very frustrating experience. The hopelessness factor can be very high. There is no real way to counter this unfortunately apart from some form of table-talk.

So, playing control in Melee sounds very tough. But is it possible? I’ll let you decide for now, but I will be back next week and hopefully start answering that question.


23 Comments

Wow, games over in 2 - 3 turns? I think most of the games that I've played in have been more in the 3+ category.
I personaly don't like it but that's the trend this side of the Atlantic.... That's why I'd like to have control make a comeback to slow things down a bit.
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jackmerridew
May 17 2012 05:58 PM
? just run a greyjoy deck with a ton of resets, no ones gonna be able to win turn 3 with the threat of a board wipe every round
how is it possible to win in 2-3 rounds a melee game? Nobody uses valar in melee?

Nobody uses valar in melee?


It's not as popular as I'd thought it would be in my limited experience. Honestly, I don't always run a reset in my Melee deck because I really want to maximize my plot options based upon what I'm seeing facing me. That said, I rarely see a Turn 2 win in Melee... usually happens Turn 3 or 4 in most of the games I've played (even with Valar).
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MaesterLUke
May 17 2012 06:21 PM
I found this experience varies a lot by "area meta." In the midwest, Valar is much more likely to be present in melee games. The first time I played with the crew in Boston (2007?), I was freaked out to see 3 players at 9+ starting round 2, while I was sitting back at 2 or 3. The winner was almost entirely decided by 2nd turn initiative.
I am interested of this Melee format. I haven't played AGoT a lot yet but I would guess control decks are one of the best decks in melee. I have lot of experience of one other multiplayer CCG (Vtes) but that works completely different and I feel play style is very different also. I feel multiplayer is a lot about table talk and making deals and with control deck you have lot to offer. With lot of cards affecting to other players you have a lot of bargaining power. If you are just rushing you really can't offer so much for other players so you end up easily silent when it is deal making time. I kind of think all players haven't realized yet how much you can affect things in multiplayer just by talking.
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darkbladecb
May 17 2012 06:36 PM
The problem with Valar in Melee in my experience is that sitting at claim 0 while three players aren't is a far greater liability and, with the titles, they're going to likely--particularly with the Gold and Draw titles--going to recover from the reset much better than you are.
    • doulos2k likes this
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jackmerridew
May 17 2012 07:13 PM
last i checked Wildfire and Westeros Bleeds were still in the environment for someone who doesnt like valar
I have used Wildfire Assault a number of times in Melee - it certainly leaves you in a better position than you would be if you'd played Valar. The disadvantage to Wildfire is that it isn't a full reset. While it can hurt your opponents, a person playing a Rush deck with the bulk of their power on a couple of key characters has an easy choice on who not to nuke - the cannot be saved assures that the supporting cast is nuked though. So, still, it has helped me win games.
I don't think I've seen one of our Melee games finish lower than turn 4...but we've also all just started playing within the last month. Our meta was 3 guys three weeks ago, and now we've hit around 7-8. Valar was used by almost everyone, but has only mostly myself now (Stark DireDeck that has yet to win in Melee). Most of the group have 1 core, maybe 2...with a house expansion. Getting packs has started, but having to get them all online makes card pools limited, this could be another reason for longer games.
Multiple resets are a way to slow down a Melee, I'll come to that in the next article. However I'd still not run Valar. It just put you behind too much to sit out one turn with 0 claim. The only reason to run Valar would be a a finisher with things like Grand Septon and Anguy the Archer.
    • darkbladecb likes this
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darkbladecb
May 18 2012 02:27 PM
I think it's less of a case of resets not working and more resets being much less effective rather that not effective. Since they're less effective, aggro tends to be more effective, so more people in melee run aggro. When everyone is running aggro, the best aggro tends to win and they tend to win more quickly, because there is less control. This is just one way that a meta develops, but I think it's a relatively common one. It could be that the prevalence of aggro in the meta may lead to someone trying to run control, but that's what this series of articles looks like it's going to be about.
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jackmerridew
May 18 2012 03:08 PM

. It just put you behind too much to sit out one turn with 0 claim.


why is claim so important to you in melee? i get most of my power through unoppossed, renown, and triggered effects. deadly and stealth will still ensure me some power from unoppossed regardless of claim. me killing a character and discarding a card from their hand usually means nothing to me. sure the claim from power challenges is nice but missing out on it for one turn is not gonna bury me. especially when you consider the upside of clearing their board.
The reason the claim matters is because during the turn when you flip Valar you are no longer a threat to the other players, i.e. you cannot reduce their power totals. This results in two possible behaviours, either they ignore you completly, since you have no cliam and possibly less characters than them tahnks to your two gold (not counting saves or GJ here). The other option is that they will all gang up on you because you are now the easiest target.

That second option is quite painful... Also Key characters (and I mean Key like Dany etc...) are never going to be wiped by a Valar. Either because they are duped, not present at its resolution or because they can't die anyway. When you consider both these outcomes, Valar seems more like a liability to me.

@darkbladecb Don't give off too much of my next article :P
I've had some limited experience running some control in Melee games with the new options out of Tales of Champions, and I hope you dive into the Title options available.

I Fight to Win is going to be a big deal in the Melee Continental and World championships this year. It produces some downright entertaining turns.
@Nerdcore I have already brushed one these things a bit here: http://www.cardgamed...he-chamber-r112
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jackmerridew
May 18 2012 04:19 PM
if you flip valar at a time when only 2 gold will hurt you, or you find yourself no longer a threat to other players, you picked the wrong time to play valar

whether i view someone as a threat or not has almost nothing to do with their claim and everything to do with their actions during the game. 0 claim doesn't make you a target, poor board presence and visible weaknesses make you a target.
If you count on Valar to counter their biggest threats you will probably have to flip it turn two or three and you have no insurance that it won't you as well. In that sense it's a reflexive move rather than an active choice on your behalf.

And post Valar the chances of you having less board presence than the other players is very likely as well since you will probably end up with less gold and they wont let you have the Master of coin title (0 init on valar as well).

I guess it's a choice the other players will have to make, but don't underestimate the psychological value of you flipping Valar either. It tends to not go down so well in my meta :P
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jackmerridew
May 18 2012 05:43 PM
hey i appreciate you allowing me to disagree and ask questions without getting defensive, really helps to have melee articles on the site outside of the multiple cards article this is my favorite.

that being said you should shock your meta with a greyjoy reset/save deck, run wildifre, valar and bleeds if they aren't building for resets theres no way their decks can handle it
I think the real power in melee control is the plots. Fortified Position, Burning Bridges, Forgotten Plans, and Art of Seduction all seem like great set ups for the Valar/Bleeds board wipe plan. I wouldn't stop at characters either, Favorable Ground can be played with a mere fiefdom and a title.

Recursion effects work best with board sweeps but most of the time they are not that efficient.
@jackmerridew No worries, that's how we become better players. I agree with that out of GJ multi-reset is a force to be reckoned with, but I;m trying to keep this as Neutral as possible. i.e. to look at it froma purely mechanic point of view without considering House mechanic or how each House can bend the situation to its advantage. Also as a side-note, I am not a GJ player and have very little experience with the House because it is not one of my favorite Houses (a very european thing, not playing other houses :P)

I think my main problem with resets comes from the time-frame I have to work with in Melee. If most games are over by turn three, a reset strategy has to be effective from turn two onwards to really be able to disrupt the aggro decks...
I forgot to say that most of my meta is actually prepared for multiple resets. Key characters are usually duplicated and have an extra save by the beginning of turn 2. This also diminishes the efficiency of Valar as a control method.