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The Hand's Judgement - Is First Plot Rule By Decree Too Powerful?

Small Council The Hands Judgement OKTarg Tyrionas Lanisteris Rule By Decree

Is Early Rule By Decree (Core) Too Powerful?

Position: Yes
By: Tyrionas Lanisteris

Hi Everybody,

My nick-name is Tyrionas Lanisteris and I am an AGOT player from Greece.

My card game background goes back to 2003 with Lord of the Rings TCG when me and my friends used to play at a very competitive level which led me to the top 20 in decipher’s world rank when the game was at its peak.

I have been playing Agot for more than a year now, thanx to Gio Karab aka: (GreekGuy), who is the Greek Tournament Organizer for Fantasy Flight and who had persuaded a lot of people that Game of Thrones is the best cardgame around and that we should give it a try.

So far I have been more than satisfied from AGOT and I consider it to be one of the best card games ever in terms of deck building and gameplay.

The reason why I chose to write this article is because lately I feel that there is a small window in the game that needs to be taken care of in order for the balance to be restored. Before going into details I will have to tell you that I am not against power strategies and trust me I have no hesitations to build decks that exploit loops and that are negative play experiences for my opponents as long as they provide give me victories. On the other hand what I don’t like in card games is when they reach a point that some cards are so powerful that are not only used by everybody but the fate of a single game can be determined by the first draw.

I really feel that this is the situation right now with the pre plot use of “much and more”, “citadel law” along with “Rule by Decree”. As in every card game your hand is the most important asset. The Fact that there is a very easy combo that allows everyone to potentially make the opponent discard 3 cards from his hand during the first plot phase makes it very hard for every competitive player to ignore it. So the case here in Greece is that everybody includes in his deck a mechanism which targets in opening successfully “Rule by Decree” as the first plot. So at a very high percentage many games are determined by the first draw since most of the decks are crippled if they have to discard 3 cards before the game begins.

I believe that this approach is often found in Magic the Gathering and it should not be encountered in AGOT. One of the advantages of AGOT is that the game is determined on the board and minor mistakes make the difference between winning and losing, since most decks are balanced. So the fact that you can discard approximately half of your opponents hand (3/7 cards) before the games begin is not in line with the rest of the game.

As long as the situation remains as it is “Rule by Decree” is even more important than “Valar Morgulis” in all competitive decks and games become boring since (1) much of the outcome is determined from your first draw and (2) in the best case scenario both players will start the game with 4 cards instead of 7 which offers limited options to both.

I really feel that the situation that I have described is too powerful for everyone to ignore which means that Plot-1-Rule-by-Decree will be found in most competitive decks and will eventually have a huge impact on game play which can in many cases turns Game of Thrones into a luck-draw game rather than a strategic game as it used to be.

That is why I feel that it should be taken care of with a sort of an errata to restrict its use during the early game turns.

[lightbox='1281901134/gallery_11_1676.jpg']1281901134/ffg_gallery_11_1676.jpg[/lightbox]

Position: No
By: OKTarg

As my esteemed colleague from across the Narrow Sea (that's the Atlantic, for those of you geographically challenged) will tell you, Rule by Decree is a problem in the environment. It's an auto include and leads to decks designed specifically to combat the pre-plot, turn one actions that reduce hand size and then strip you down to four cards on turn one.

I'm not even sure any of that's false.....except for the part where that's a problem. One of my favorite aspects of the LCG format is that everyone has access to the same cards, even more so with the recent Seasons reprint and the impending Clash of Arms re-release. So you know everyone you're playing has a Rule by Decree in their collection. But they also have a Valar. They likely also have First Snow. Probably they have Fear of Winter. Maybe they have Shadows and Spiders. And so on......

Every deck MUST build in counters to resets. If you go into a game just planning to flood unique characters, Valar Morghulis will ruin your day. Similarly, if you just plan to hoard your cards until the board is reset and then flood, you've got to look out for Rule by Decree. I think these kinds of resets are great for the game, as they help houses without intense card advantage compete at high levels. Sure, in Game of Thrones draw and overall card advantage is a huge aspect of victory, but it's not the only thing. Cards like Rule by Decree help ensure that, and we need them in the environment.

But what does any of that have to do with turn one pre-plot actions, you ask? Well, let's take a look at some of the common ones and see if they are truly an issue:

1. The Citadel Law+Rule by Decree+Threat from the East combo. This still is nasty with Laughing Storm, but with the errata on Threat from the East comboed with its restriction, it is no longer a problem.

2. Citadel Law+Counting Favors+Rule by Decree. Again, still strong, but you're still looking at a very specific combo piece and you're going down to four cards, not one. Not to mention that a deck built to exploit this combo will likely be weaker in challenges and have a worse setup than your own, if you've build right.

3. Much and More + Rule by Decree. This is a fan favorite right now, but you're still getting to choose four of eight cards. That's not terrible though it does hurt.

4. Targaryen KoTHH ambush + Rule by Decree: Targ can use its influence to jump in an ambush guy like Dragon Knight, then strip your hand down. That's tough, but they've used their influence on T1 to do so and the 2-cost and fewer ambush guys are typically better for their come-into-play effect than being on the board. Again, with a good setup you should be OK.

5. Epic Battles + Rule by Decree: While not that popular right now, Epic Battles can do the same thing as Much and More. The problem is getting those battle events into your hand without crimping your setup, not always easily achieved.

I don't see anything in there that looks ridiculously gamebreaking, certainly not with FFG's attention to the combos over the last few FAQ's. And those combos are a small price to pay for a handsize reset in the environment, something that Greyjoy needs against those Martell KoTHH recursion monsters and Lannister's overall advantages in card draw. It's a staple of the rock-paper-scissors deckbuilding that takes place in a meta.

So you don't like facing the Rule by Decree turn one combo all the time? What can you do about it? Well, I suggest the following:

1. Improve your setup. This will give you needed board presence even without a reserve handsize.

2. Improve your card draw. This will help you claw back from the disadvantages of a turn one Rule by Decree, safe in the knowledge that your opponent can't have another.

3. Wait, and Rule by Decree him back when it hurts more than turn one. Turn one is important, but with Valar and First Snow and other control plots running around out there, you can always come back from a poor board position. Punish him for wasting a reset turn one by First Snowing into a Rule by Decree in a future turn. I always find that to be much more hurtful than a turn one handsize strip.

4. Include a few Any Phase actions in your draw deck. Be it your own ambush, epic battles, or even You've Killed the Wrong Dwarf, some Any Phase actions can save your bacon if needed. You shouldn't need a ton of them, and if you are worried about diluting your build to stick them in, consider how much your opponent has diluted their own to include enough to reliably hit on T1. Then, feel better about working over such a dilute deck. Or, stick in a few event cancels to head off Much and More or Epic Battles.

5. Know the builds that a first turn RBD can hurt and those it can't. When playing a Hollow HIll build yourself, keeping card advantage up in the first few turns is CRUCIAL to make up for your poor setup. Take advantage of some protections in that case. However, if you're running a Lannister Power Behind the Throne, you can usually deal with the handsize loss since the hurt you're putting on them will be twice as bad. Then, when they need to equalize later in the game, their plot to do so with is in their used pile.

In sum, Tyrionas made some good points, but don't forget: for everything there is an answer, and for problems that are ubiquitous, the answers become easy. If your meta is RBD-crazy, take advantage of your knowledge. As GI Joe says, Knowing is Half the Battle.

 
Agree or Disagree? Let us know in the comments!
  • Zaidkw, bigfomlof and Rhaegar56 like this


22 Comments

You can always play something yourself in that window. Like Much and More, an Epic battle or an Ambush card (if you're Targ). Or cancel their event with a Paper Shield. If you run a shadows deck, open with City of Lies, get the initiative and put down 2 cards to make them discard.
If the game is decided after an opponent hits you with that combo in turn one, your should do some rework to your deck. Fear of Winter + Rule by Decree in turn 2 or (as mentioned) City of Lies (anyway, that might not work against KotHH decks because of the initative tie) turn the advantage into a disadvantage. If that would become common, players would stop playing a first round rule by decree.
or you just play your own rule by decree on the turn they will so you both have to discard
    • DubiousYak and PopePwnage like this
Well RBD is a great plot and surely needed in order to preserve the balance of the game but the hole problem is that it shuts down a lot of decks on the competitive level . There are definetly answers that can be found anywhere but Agot should be about tons of options and choices . Committing a few cards in order to counter a play/deck style is the essence of the game but this whole PRE - plot RBD gets it to another lvl . In my opinion Rule by Degree is an awesome plot that shouldn't be changed at all the 1st turn pre plot thingie is what messes everything up and might need a change .
Trying to counter RBD with RBD is a bad idea, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Worst play ever, preplot, my opponent drops Much & More, I ambush in a sellsword deserter. He plays another Much & More, I play one too. He *plays a wasted event,* and I have no counter. He's got 7 cards to my eight, I reveal RBD, he reveals...I forget what. Whatever it was, it wasn't blonde with red wallpaper.

...frak.
    • erocklawell likes this
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LorasTyrell
Feb 04 2013 01:21 PM

Trying to counter RBD with RBD is a bad idea, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Worst play ever, preplot, my opponent drops Much & More, I ambush in a sellsword deserter. He plays another Much & More, I play one too. He *plays a wasted event,* and I have no counter. He's got 7 cards to my eight, I reveal RBD, he reveals...I forget what. Whatever it was, it wasn't blonde with red wallpaper.

...frak.

Yeah but guessing your opponent's move is part of the game :)
Like when you want to play Valar but you know your opponent has the Outwit plot, it's also about bluffing, imho

I mean, there might be better counters (like putting cards in the shadows and so on), but, if you have no choice, trying it might be a good idea... or you might just want to wait for a better time to use your RBD, depends on the game you're playing :)
T1 RBD isn't anything new. It's been around for a very long time. It may be a more popular fad now than in the past, but Targ has used ambush into RBD before KotHH, and Stark Seige has used epic battles into RBD long before Much and More.

It's a good play and always has been. Now that it's easier for more deck types to pull it off, you see it more frequently. Eventually there will be a new fad that everyone rushes into.
In the 8 rounds I played at the Moonboy over the weekend only once did I Much and More into Rule by Decree plot one. My opponent had City of Lies and went first; luckily he only had 1 card to drop into shadows so I didn't have to discard. That was also the only game I lost all day.

Also, like hoyalawya said, turn 1 Rule by Decree has been around since the Core Set. In one of my very first games Greg hit me with it, so I don't understand why people are complaining about it now.
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scantrell24
Feb 04 2013 03:25 PM
Kneeling influence to jump in Rusted Sword also works.

I feel like its borderline close to being overpowered. You start the game with 6 cards, then redraw to 8. They start with 4 then draw phase to 6. So a 25% advantage is pretty big.
I think it can be a brutal combo when you can reveal Counting Favors before RBD. This way they are draw capped before discarding down to 4.
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ShadowcatX2000
Feb 04 2013 03:41 PM
Trading 1 card for 4 is a good advantage, make no mistake. However, I don't think it is as big a deal as some people act like it is. One of the problems I've seen in people playing against RBD is that people will discard cards that will help them survive to the long game in favor of cards that they can only play in the long game. (Ie. They'll keep 3 3+ gold characters when they only have 3 gold this turn, rather than keeping 2 refugees and a single 3+ gold character.)
i will say it does really suck having this played on u turn one BUT only depending on what deck people using. I love when it gets turned on me turned one if using my martell deck because then when i have 15 cards in hand i dont have to worry, could see some lanni decks not caring turn one either, however against decks without a good amount of draw can make it hard to recover.
Just set up the laughing storm. ;D ;D ;D
I love discarding loyal entourages!! (or guards?.....the one that can be played from discard)
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potatoechip99
Feb 04 2013 04:34 PM
Melisandre's Schemes is also a good Baratheon answer to this.
I agree with OKTarg completely--for all the reasons he maintains. Thanks for the discussion.
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accountdeleted
Feb 04 2013 05:50 PM
Question: How often do you play all cards from your hand on turn 1?
Answer: Never.

Question: Does a turn one RBD hurt you then?
Answer: Not really.

RBD is much stronger during the mid game. I wouldn't waste it for such a ridiculous advantage on turn one.

I guess the power of this combo is of psychological nature. "O my god, my opponent could attack my hand before the game has even started. I couldn't do anything to prevent it. I am lost." Deal with it, be fine.
RBD is a fantastic follow up to FSoW depending on the number of characters it has returned.
The problem with the Counting Favors into Rule By Decree is that then you're stuck with Counting Favors in your plot deck. It's probably the only combo with RBD that I fear, as the standard losing three cards only really hurts if you don't pack enough draw and you have no recursion. Even without those counters (I run a couple of decks without much draw), then you can easily counter on having a better setup. While it's never fun to have a hand disadvantage turn one, I'm usually happy to see they've used up their RBD as opposed to catching me with lots of cards in hand.
If you consistently am able to use Counting Favors with RBD, so that you are the only one to receive the +3 card draw advantage, then what's so bad about being "stuck" with it in your plot deck? You would reveal it using a player action before plot reveals occur and follow it up with RBD as the standard plot reveal. I don't think you'd include it unless you can consistently pull it off.
My problem with turn one RBD is that it hits very hard against decks that don't rely strongly on drawing cards. Many Martell and Lannister decks can shrug off a RBD but if you're playing Baratheon (non-maester) your draw is much weaker and you are less likely to be able to make up for the lost cards. While strong draw is often important to succesful decks I think strategies that rely less on drawing should also be viable.

Thank god for Melisandre's Scheme.
Since most of the main point seems to be on that we need a hand reset plot then what about errating it to not be one sided effect? Valar isn't one sided, wildfire isn't and nor is the pale mare. So what about errata to RBD that makes both players discard down to 4 if able? That way we still have hard hand reset without it going to first turn weirdness in which case we could maybe even unrestrict Threat from the East? also the change wouldn't be complicated in this case.
    • lejon likes this