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1
The White Book S6E11- 220
Oct 09 2015 04:00 AM |
Kennon
in Game of Thrones
Podcast Kennon Pulseglazer TomDamin
This week Will, Aaron, and a special guest Tommy hear that Core Sets are actually in release and then dive into a Greyjoy review.Music: Townfish by Spinozar
- fauxintel likes this
31 Comments
Interestingly, at first I agreed with you (when we spoke about this a few days ago), but I've had time to think about it - especially in context of the card (We do not Sow) that you were reviewing just before it.
Sure, when GJ is guaranteeing an UO challenge, that's not very interactive - but when using stealth/balon is forcing difficult decisions - like "do I block this with my best character, still lose, only to deny the UO" or "do I block this with a character that will die to the throwing axe, just to deny the UO" - that actually winds up being quite an interactive decision. Obviously, if the stealth/icon balance doesn't work out for your opponent, that just means they are forced to say "UO" - and there, it's boring - but as icon balances spread (or you get more stealth defensively), I think it becomes a very interesting theme of evaluating the "threat" of the UO challenge.
Currently, We do not Sow, Asha, Theon and Great Kraken do a great job of establishing the threat of an UO challenge and making that decision more meaningful than against any other deck. When you have a decision at all...
Aaron, I think you're spot on with how Greyjoy is being setup to deny opponents options. Especially with the new Loot event that they're scheduled to get. Whether that makes them boring or non-interactive, that remains to be seen though.
Oh and Sicario, the movie I propped, only came out last weekend in the US... seriously worth a watch.
Also thanks to Will and Aaron for having me on, was a lot of fun!
Alex - Does any house have more than one character that can stand up to Balon? If not, then stealth means an awful lot, as any single stealth will get you UO. That, effectively, means that so long as GJ draws Balon and We Do Not Sow, it can get rid of any location or attachment. Balon plus any stealth character functionally guarantees an unopposed at this point. Will that always be the case? Of course not, but it surely is now. You can't just throw a chump in front of it. The entire house is built around blockers and with current icon spreads, it's extremely hard to stop.
In short, I, functionally, don't think you can stop them from getting at least one challenge UO without ridiculous luck or kneel. And then once they add in Balon, it gets quite silly fast. If evaluating and answering the threat were an option, I'd agree. As the current environment stands, it usually is not.
Kain - I don't think it's especially arguable that they are interactive when they literally remove your options for 1/2 of challenges. Boring? That's a preference.
Tom - Glad to have you on, and I've now seen Sicario adds. I'll try and check it out. It's option denial that gives you half of challenges, unlike choke which gives you none. Unfortunately, though, GJ can kill your location base still and further kneel out your reducers. Since you need a big board to counter stealth, that little choke is even worse.... and we didn't even get to Newly Made Lord yet.
Every faction is ultimately trying to shut down things your opponent can do. A hard aggro deck is trying to kill off all your characters before you can even make challenges; a kneel deck is trying to prevent you from having standing characters to challenge with; burn is trying to stop your characters from being present for resolution; and so on. If every deck could pave an uninteractive route to success, it would do so and thrive from it. Don't be hatin' just 'cause Greyjoy are good at it
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You can use strength pumps to counter Targ or stand to counter Bara. They simply didn't print cards that counter all that stealth. Thanks for proving my point!
That's my impression, given a limited experience with the game (so far).
But I thought it was funny - the reason I wasn't attracted to building a Baratheon deck is that it seems, to me, super boring - it doesn't only shut off the options of the opponent but also yours. To me, Bara kneel seems like the most boring to play with or against, much more so than Greyjoy.
I was just watching the semi-final of Rob St. John's Iron Price Invitational, and there's a Greyjoy deck there that meets Bara Fealty. Not to spoil the ending, but Greyjoy started with Asha, Euron and Balon on the board on turn 1 - a phenomenal start. Not too soon, Bara was able to grind the entire game to a halt with Stannis and the kneel business, with no challenges on either side and Iron Throne/Chamber of the Painted Table doing its boring old job.
To me it's a good demonstration. Stannis is, in my opinion, has one of the most boring abilities in the game that literally takes choices away from both players and lets none of them do much. It's a passive ability, you don't even have to do much. I think it's second only to The Iron Throne in boringness - a card that you just put on the table and then do nothing with for the whole game. It forces almost every deck to include an Iron Throne of itself so that they cancel each other and continue to do nothing.
Of course, I may change my mind - I'm new to the game and only been playing on OCTGN while waiting for my core set to arrive. But I find Greyjoy much more interesting to play, and even more interesting to play against than Bara-kneel.
Took a new car for a test drive today right after listening to your podcast.
I turned on the radio and I sh!t you not "Danger Zone" was playing !!!
I am pretty sure that is a sign to buy the car !!
Also I agree Risen is worded and costed to effectively to make me believe Valar is coming. Even if it is in a different form and it eventually rotates out (and hopefully something else rotates in). I believe the game needs maybe not a Valar in every deck, but at least the threat of one.
Great cast again my friends and I think I will be buying a new car this Tuesday (Closed Monday for Canadian Thanksgiving)
Oh Happy Thanksgiving everyone !
#DANGERZONELIVES
I'm going to have to disagree with my friend Aaron here and agree with Wamma.
Fundamentally, AGoT (1.0 and 2.0) is a game of denial. It is build around denying your opponent resources - military challenges take away characters, intrigue challenges deny opponents cards, and power challenges steal the fundamental win condition. When a opponent's deck is "going off" it is often difficult to feel like you can do anything - you are constantly shedding cards, losing characters, and being drained of power. For a Thrones deck to be successful it must be able to fundamentally screw up what your opponent wants to do.
Aaron does have a good point though: GJ (along with Bara) is one of the only houses that highlight this aspect of Thrones's design out of the core set.
This can be a frustrating experience, considering most of the other houses (except Lanni and Bara) lack the same sort of on-theme, efficient characters as the Krakens. GJ's only real weakness (which makes it worse than Lanni or Bara) is that its theme is easy to shut down. You can marshall enough characters to prevent their unopposed from going off. They might still get challenges through but Asha won't be standing, Theon won't be claiming power, We Don't Sow will sit in their hand, etc. etc. Bara kneel on the other hand is much harder to disrupt, particularly since they have cheap, efficient events that power their kneel.
What is Lannister denying the opponent? It can run the same removal as anyone else, but mostly it's trying to out-resource you, not deny you resources. Stark is trying to out stand you, not say you have no characters... etc etc. I don't hate GJ (or Bara) as a theme, but that kind of denial is, to me, NPE in a core set environment.
This is true, Lanni does not have same "shutdown" themes out of the core set as Bara or GJ. They are present (bounce) but not fully developed. If Nate choses to print 2-3 more bounce cards in the first coupe of cycles and deluxe, Ghaston could be reborn in 2.0 as a Lanni theme!! XD
What makes Lanni so strong out of the core set (and what they share with GJ & Bara) is hyper efficient "bomb" characters. Tyrion and Tywin can power the neutral denial cards in a way that no other house has access to.
Stark's "denial" theme out of the core seems to be some sort of combination of stand and kill, which is not fully developed, Martell's icon stealing, etc. etc. None of these themes are as fully developed as Bara or GJ. And the top three houses have such consistent, efficient characters that the difference between GJ, Bara, and Lanni and the rest is striking.
The Core, to me, is a place to present themes and let people see what characters and effects can do. The denial in GJ and Bara, therefore...
Awesome cast as usual. Interesting thoughts on the cards. I had a couple points on 2 of them.
I think Wyndy should have been higher. Stealth is stealth as you said. How many times can your opponent only get out like 3 characters first turn. And a first turn Wyndy attack means you block with one of your big characters or they go UO and trigger Kraken and Sow. I just think adding that cheap stealth to keep Asha going is great.
I was very surprised at your ratings for the Shipwright. The way you guys were talking about him, he's the best thing since.....(fill in). And I also think he is. He seems like he would be in every deck for a long time to come which I thought was the definition of an A for you guys. One comment was made that there may not be enough targets for his ability and he'll get better. I actually think he's greater b/c there are less targets and you have to decide in Marshaling. So if your opponent gets out the Red Keep your not waiting for something else to kneel. And even have less variety to hit, then about the effects of the cards he can hit. Ghaston, HighGarden, Plaza, Mander, Keep, Spear, Table, and like Aaron kept saying, Kingsroad which lets you stay on top of your opponent b/c they either can't put out their big characters or only their big characters and your stealthing on by.
The more I see Shipwright out, the happier I have been lately. Card has seriously underestimated power and what I like is it has clear prime targets, but it is versatile enough that it can hit all sorts of problem locations. I also have been enjoying using him to kneel a Location in Marshalling, killing him for Military claim and bringing him back in Dominance potentially with Aeron Damphair with the Ironborn trait being relevant... location control and can be used often as recyclable claim soak, brilliant.
and to me, thats why he's an A. multiple uses and repeatable. when will he not be in a deck? redundant, lol
I really dig Wendy for now... perhaps there's a bit of leftover 1.0ness in here, where he'd be just bad there. I still expect him to go away relatively soon.
Nailed it.
If you present the core set without any serious denial, you're dishonestly selling a different product to the one you intend to maintain. I'd rather see a little denial sprinkled in to stop people complaining so much when it actually arrives.
Also, you mentioned Stark not having any denial in the core - did your copy of the core not have Catelyn Stark, Bran Stark, Ice, Like Warm Rain or Grey Wind?
So again, is the problem inherent in the approach of Greyjoy as you imply, or is it just that Baratheon and Greyjoy are too coherent for other factions to cope with currently? Like, is your problem with Greyjoy something that cannot be fixed as long as that remains Greyjoy's theme, or is it something that is only a problem due to the limited cardpool we're necessarily going to have for the first couple of cycles? And if it's the latter, is it not unfair on Greyjoy to hate on the entire faction?
Bought the car !!
DANGER ZONE !!