The White Book S6E7- 217

Given you are reviewing long term rather than short term I pretty much agree with the assessments made. Targister or Lannaryen both seem solid.

Most of the audio was better, but Aaron's audio was if anything worse this week, I really struggled to make out anything he said.

I'm going to gripe and complain about the griping and complaining. It's getting old. Sure FFG could have done better, but telling everyone "the sky is falling" only helps perpetuate that outcome. Both y'all and BtW have overreacted, and frankly I won't be listening if your content starts with doomsaying every week.

I'm incredibly exited about this game, and I'll be making a huge push to build a local meta here in Atlanta as well as cultivating a vibrant online community. It'd be great if those efforts weren't undermined by the two most well-known casts.

Let's create a positive atmosphere around the game we all love, and kick this thing off the right way.

There seem to be 8 minutes of dead air at the end of this cast... I know we used to make fun of you guys for running long, but...

 

Same audio troubles for Aaron. 

 

To Scantrell/TwB - I think in a way it's the failure to communicate, which is is what TWB was highlighting (And better than we did). The other problem though is that for some reason we all expected this launch to be different - really, it's looking to be exactly the same as Conquest and Netrunner. Since we don't really know if those launches were deliberate or delays, maybe even calling this one delays is unfair. None of this absolves them from the need to communicate better...

I'll buy yet another new mic. Recommendations?

All FFG had to do was say LIMITED release at Gencon, and people would not be losing their minds. Yes the wait sucks. Yes FFG is handling it poorly. Yes it has killed hype. But the game is great and I cannot wait for it to officially release and start accumulating more cards for the pool. Hopefully they learn from this and handle L5R's release better.

Good cast, guys.

I'm going to gripe and complain about the griping and complaining. It's getting old. Sure FFG could have done better, but telling everyone "the sky is falling" only helps perpetuate that outcome. Both y'all and BtW have overreacted, and frankly I won't be listening if your content starts with doomsaying every week.

I'm incredibly exited about this game, and I'll be making a huge push to build a local meta here in Atlanta as well as cultivating a vibrant online community. It'd be great if those efforts weren't undermined by the two most well-known casts.

Let's create a positive atmosphere around the game we all love, and kick this thing off the right way.

I too am excited for this game but FFG has, in my opinion, botched the release of the game since GenCon.* Some of this is out of their control (product shipping delays, most likely) but a lot of it is things that could have been handled a lot better.

 

Even with the product delays why is there not more content from FFG pushing the game on players (new and old)? Why are there not more interviews with Nate French about the design of the game? Why not have an article talking about how certain cards are very thematic or the ways in which the game fits with the novels/TV show? Why not announce a 2.0 winter kit that can bridge the gap between Worlds and the Store Championship season for competitive players? Looking over FFG's social media presence there has been little push or hype for the game or an attempt to keep the well-deserved GenCon enthusiasm flowing. 

 

Of course, FFG has its large board game line to support and four (soon to be five... L5R hype!) big LCG IPs to nurture and promote. Giving Netrunner, Star Wars, Warhammer, and GoT equal time and attention must be a marketing nightmare. But it is also difficult to be too sympathetic to their licensing success. 

 

Again, I am excited for 2.0. On a design level I believe Nate knocked it out of the park. The 2.0 core is the strongest I've encountered from an FFG game (1.0, SW, and Warhammer, I'm not a Netrunner person). But beyond the game itself it is difficult to feel anything but disappointment. FFG seems to want the community to do most of the leg work for the launch of their biggest LCG since Netrunner. But there are limits to this. The relaunch *already* asks a lot of the existing playing base (i.e. largely shelving the time and money investment they made in 1.0) and without clear backing from Fantasy Flight it is easy to see how the "enthusiasm gap" has emerged. 

 

While certainly, the complaining about this subject on the forums here can get insufferable, none of the arguments or griping on the White Book or Beyond the Wall has been unconstructive. 30 percent of last week's BtW was spent on Jon's mad plan to reorganize FFG's organized play, for gosh sake! Will, Alex, and Jon have given this game (in 1.0 and 2.0 versions) unpaid (mostly) hours of support and love throughout the years. They've earned the right to be critical. 

 

Here in NYC we've made a concerted effort to push the game as well.** I've spent most of my time at our weekly meet up teaching the game to new and interested players. But without the ability to say "you love this, just go to one of our many local stores and pick up the game" an enthusiasm gap is even emerging for new players. It is hard to set up learn to play nights at local stores when the stores don't have the product. It is difficult to organize launch tournaments while people don't have their cores or there is no tourney kit from FFG. 

 

I'm all for creating a positive attitude around the game. I love it and the community around it. But I'm against creating a knee-jerk positive attitude that does not give ust the space to tell FFG when they've made mistakes or we need more support from them to make the game and the community what we want it to be.

 

---

*The pre-GenCon hype machine and the Kingslayer tournament were both great! They really built up a lot of enthusiasm. 

 

**Unlike my great friend Aaron Glazer, I think adding new players is great.

Steve, I appreciate your enthusiasm (and regular contributions to the community), but I also think it is well within the rights of these podcast producers to call it as they see it. They aren't FFG employees, but highly dedicated fans of the franchise. I think they would be remiss if they didn't report and reflect on what has been going on with the community vibe these days. Because, let's face it, wishing that the general vibe was more positive and that people weren't losing interest/momentum doesn't make it so. The simple fix here is for FFG to communicate (related article, news on demo kits, release information, developer diary, whatever) and give the community something new to chew on. Without that, the conversation will continue to deteriorate since there's nothing new to talk about.

 

Having said all that, I'd be shocked if any of the hosts abandoned this game, FFG lack of communication and delayed release aside.

I see both sides.

 

In the end, a lot of us know the score.  Product was delayed, and we all know it.  Even if FFG told us, we would be complaining about the consistency of their delays instead of their lack of communication.

 

Yeah, it sucks, yeah they should have explained more, but we all know what is happening so I don't get the *continued* complaining about the lack of communication.

 

Interest dying out is a valid concern, though.  Magicdave set me straight in the "Let's Talk Variance" thread, I recommend all of us "vets" take his advice and become better advocates for the game despite our frustration.  Griping and moaning hasn't worked so far, but it is in our control to create and maintain a positive attitude for the good of the realm.

Yeah, I don't buy the for the "good of the realm" line. That too often crosses over into doing FFG's job for them because they're too lazy, incompetent, or uncaring to themselves.  Basically, to grow their game, they are, implicitly, demanding the existing player base expand, through marketing and teaching, the game.  That's not our job.  It's their job that they have employees who get paid to do, that we in turn all do for free. And even after we do their job for literally years, they don't even communicate with us to let us know what's going on.  

 

And don't doubt a few hosts leave the game.  

I guess my point is more that we know they aren't doing it, so we have to step up (we shouldn't, but we do have to) otherwise it just won't happen.

 

I do acknowledge that FFG should be doing it themselves, but if we know they won't, lets do what we can to keep the community healthy and active.  We shouldn't have to, but we do.

If I want my Thrones community to thrive, I will do whatever I can, despite how I feel about the company right now. Because this is the only game that matters. Without it, I'm left with Conquest and LotR, which aren't substantial enough to sate my nerd hunger. Plus, I feel like the first CP will be released extremely close to the Core at this point which is a positive.

Was the first Conquest war pack released extremely close to the Core? I don't recall it being so last year. 

They pre-released the Howl of Blackmane at Worlds, then the general public received it within the next month, I believe.

Hmmm.... So wide release of the Conquest Core in late September/ Early October and first CP in late November/Early December? *whew* Boy that sounds quick!

No need to be sarcastic, Will! I'm just trying to be optimistic. Who poured Tears in your Cheerios this morning?!

It was Aaron. Definitely Aaron.

I should have known. Glazer!!!!

Awesome cast as usual. I'm going to actual talk about the reviews. The delay or whatever sucks for sure as we have(outside of the actual meta) about 8 "living room" players and 4 cores so its tough right now but we get by and it will come when it comes.

 

So Fire and Blood, it was mentioned it was a great use for Jorah, except he is sacrificed and goes to discard not dead so no dice there. Now Aaron was reading the card and couldn't understand him that well, so maybe I heard it wrong.

 

Another very good use for Waking the Dragon would be on Viserys to get attachment removal.

 

I feel like there was something else that I can't remember now, lol, but did anyone figure out the timing on Viserys being killed on like a "Valar" and targeting BG?

 

thanks again

Today I remembered that Renown is a "may" trigger, and that you can use Jorah as much as you want without the threat of being discarded or participation.

Today I remembered that Renown is a "may" trigger, and that you can use Jorah as much as you want without the threat of being discarded or participation.

 

You can't, though, b/c his Forced Interrupt is in response to winning the challenge, not to claiming power for renown.

Win 2 challenges with Jorah and then put Milk of the Poppy on him.

I feel like there was something else that I can't remember now, lol, but did anyone figure out the timing on Viserys being killed on like a "Valar" and targeting BG?

 

In second edition, cancels (would initiate) happen before saves (would be killed) happen before interrupts to something actually happening (when ... i s killed). If a Valar-like effect goes off, the opportunity to initiate saves is passed by the time you could initiate Viserys's ability.

Win 2 challenges with Jorah and then put Milk of the Poppy on him.

 

You could, but then you are spending:

 

3g, 2 cards, and the opportunity to Milk something good that your opponent has on the board (much better value)

 

to get:

 

A 4str Bicon.

 

 

It does work, I just don't think it will *often* be the correct play.  Maybe to close a game or something I guess.

another fine @ss episode fellas !!

I don't think you guys are saying the sky is falling (or there would not have been 217 episodes), you are just speaking plainly and the truth. Hopefully FFG is listening for next time.

Love the card grades and explanations for your opinions why.

keep up the good work !!

#bringbackdangerzone

As Kizer said, I think there are two sides to this, where on the one hand FFG are handling the delay terribly, but on the other hand the fact that they're handling the delay terribly is only legitimising complaints that would've come anyway. Aaron is one of the few exceptions, but I doubt many of the people who are complaining wouldn't be complaining if FFG had said three-four weeks ago "it'll be delayed until October for reasons beyond our control". And on the flipside, the people who are quitting, or are considering it, are doing it for the reason of there being no stock, not for the reason that FFG haven't communicated it. How many people are actually saying "well I can handle being stuck without a game to play an enjoy for a full 6-8 weeks longer than I expected, but FFG's lack of telling me to sit on my hands in the meantime has filled me with enough rage to quit without compunction!"

 

Short version of the above: there are two problems, one major and beyond FFG's control (lack of product), one minor and well-within their control (poor communication), and people are upset about the former and channelling their rage into the latter, despite its ultimate aforementioned minor-ness.