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With Fire and Blood - Knights of the Hollow Hill

Small Council With Fire and Blood OKTarg Targaryen

With Fire and Blood: Knights of the Hollow Hill

Last session doulos2k took a look at agendas for Targaryen in general, overviewing some great things to keep in mind when choosing your agenda as a Targaryen player. This week, we're going to focus in on perhaps the most talked about agenda this side of the House of Dreams. You know it; you fear it; you can not defeat it--the Knights of the Hollow Hill.

WHY IS THIS AGENDA SO GOOD?

John Bruno's win at Worlds shows that this is definitively a Tier 1 deck. In particular, this card works well with Targaryen for a couple of reasons:

1. Influence as a true resource. Whereas other houses typically use influence as a cost for effects (like Walk of Shame (ARotD)) Targaryen uses it almost interchangeably with gold due to the proliferation of the Ambush keyword. That takes the agenda from being +2 resources to +4 resources. That mitigates the -5 from the setup penalty after the very first plot phase.

2. They have a use for the initiative. Lots of control decks like to go second, and Burn decks are no different. Seeing what your opponent marshals before you commit cards is always nice, and burning down a challenger on defense means your guys are standing for offense. Conversely, if you want to go first to either be aggressive or decide conflicting passives (such as on a Threat from the North (PotS) turn, you can do that. The +2 initiative helps to give you the option more often than your opponent, and options equal wins more often than not. Initiative boosts also open up Bay of Ice (KotS) as a draw source, and Hollow Hill decks need draw like I need my morning Starbucks.

3. They have the most ways of mitigating slow starts. Knights of the Hollow Hill will by definition be starting from behind, so mitigating that setup disadvantage is mandatory for a win. The common Turn 1 plots that I've seen out of Hollow Hill are The First Snow of Winter (ODG) and Rule by Decree (Core), and Targaryen can run them as well as anyone. With come into play effects on their 2-cost characters such as Dragon Thief and Dragon Knight, First Snow becomes more than a setup gambit for Targ. They can just ambush their guys in while yours are stuck in your hand. And, that same ambush ability enables a T1 Rule by Decree more easily than most. Throw in some Much and More (AHM), and you have at least two plots worth their salt on T1 that help to slow your opponent. Conversely, an opposing Rule by Decree is extremely crippling for a Hollow Hill build, so extra 'any phase' and ambush actions help prevent your own hand being stripped. The erratas to the Laughing Storm hand attack combos have helped this as well.

4. They can include three resets with no problem. Plot one is not the only plot you'll be likely to be behind. You need to play the long game, meaning that a Hollow Hill player hangs in there until the resource advantage and card draw evens out over time and their board control goes unchallenged. Most decks have one reset to help with this, but Hollow Hill will have Valar Morghulis, First Snow, and Threat from the North. If you were feeling really crazy, you could even add Wildfire Assault. Keeping the board clear works to Targaryen's advantage, letting ambush take over.

5. The Narrow Sea cycle boosted their efficiency. Targaryen's usual problem was inefficient cards. Now, with Long Lances and Incinerate, that's no longer an issue. Sure, pound for pound their characters aren't as great as others, but they don't need to be. I'm even reading calls for some Targ restrictions, a sure sign that they've arrived.

6. Draw and card advantage are available to this house. Since Hollow Hill starts with a -3 or -4 card disadvantage after setup, you have to gain that back somehow. Meraxes (TBC),Bay of Ice (KotS) add draw where Targ used to rely only on Summer, and Lady Dany's Chambers, The Golden Company, and Ambush from the Plains add recursion effects. Recursion is arguably better than draw, since you get to choose what you want in many instances and typically good cards end up in your discard since they're the ones you chose to play.

HOW DID JOHN BRUNO LEVERAGE THESE ADVANTAGES?

There have been several podcasts on which John was kind enough to be a guest host, and he even went so far as to post his decklist for perusal. Rather than belabor those points, I'll have the Man Behind the Throne (Darksbane) add a link to the decklist here or so... [Does that make me Littlefinger? - Darksbane]
Targ KotHH - House of Pain - 2012 Joust Worlds 1st Place
When you're done soaking it in I'll comment on how his deck ticks the above boxes, and then talk about how Bruno takes it to the next level.

1. Influence as a true resource. Looking at the deck, 15 out of 27 characters come with the Ambush keyword. That freed up the pilot to use gold on locations and reserve influence for surprise assaults out of his characters, 12 of which feature a come-into-play ability of some kind. This gives ambush the triple duty of resource provision, character provision, and control or card advantage effects. Most houses simply can't match that out of Hollow Hill.

2. They have a use for the initiative. Beyond turn order, Bruno's House of Pain leverages initiative into card draw with Bay of Ice but also opens up Ambush from the Plains (QoD) as a key card. This event lets you pull a character from your discard pile, but only if its cost is less than your initiative. Bruno's deck was able to basically grab whatever character he wanted, whenever he needed it.

3. They have the most ways of mitigating slow starts. The inclusion of these plots is key for Hollow Hill decks, but this one has taken a previously un-thought-of option and turned it into a near staple for netdecks all around the world: Waste Their Time (QoD). This plot doesn't focus so much on the board as on the hand. Reasoning rightly that choosing a key card like a Raven or Viper's Bannermen pre-turn one gives a much-needed counter to certain decktypes, Bruno utilized this card to great effect all day long. Its Power Struggle trait also opened up To Be a Dragon (SB). Marched to the Wall, Rule by Decree, and First Snow all exist as other turn one options for slowing an opponent.

4. They can include three resets with no problem. And look at that, the Worlds deck had three resets. Timing these is critical, depending on reading your opponent and pilot skill, but the overall power they bring to the game is awesome and allows Hollow Hill the time it needs to get rolling.

5. The Narrow Sea cycle boosted their efficiency. There are a staggering number of key cards from the latest packs in these decks. I don't know for sure, but I bet the "DC Winter" deck had less than three cards from the new cycle in the deck. This one, on the other hand, features Long Lances, Company of the Cat, Much and More, Recruitment, Young Griff, Magister Illyrio, Great Pyramid of Meereen, and Incinerate. Suffice it to say, this deck couldn't be built before the Narrow Sea came out. Each one of those (save Young Griff, probably) is very key and cannot be easily replaced by something else. Maybe this is why I'm seeing those calls for restrictions.....

6. Draw and card advantage are available to this house. Here is where John Bruno shows himself to be the top player that he is. He only used two Meraxes and two Bay of Ice, relying instead on recursion. He dusted off Recruitment (VD), which was widely panned upon release. This card let him grab many key characters (Long Lances, anyone?) from the discard pile, allowing options as well as card advantage. Further, he used Street Waif (AToT), which had also been long forgotten.

The real key, however, was in the hand control this deck can assert over the opponent. Once more utilizing the influence from the agenda, he selected Confession (KotS), giving him not only hand knowledge but also control over that hand. Aegon's Hill (TTotH) added to this theme. Usually such locations are too expensive, but not with the boosts from Hollow Hill. This combination of recursion and hand control proved too much for opponents to bear, leading to a much-deserved Joust championship.

WHY DOESN'T HOLLOW HILL WIN ALL THE TIME?

First off, this is a hard agenda to play. You're starting from behind always, and a good opponent can often work that to their advantage. All of the options that the agenda gives also means that you can make a lot of bad choices. A Noble rush deck typically gives fewer options, making the best one easier to see, but also giving you fewer outs and ways around situations. Hollow Hill gives those options, but only top players will make the right choice consistently. John Bruno is such a player, and House Targaryen is proud to have him as a bannerman right now.

I hope that you aren't tired of hearing about this deck. John Bruno took a great archetype (burn) and added ingenious aspects of recursion and hand control. This, more than any other, is the deck that is shaping the meta right now and will still be the one to beat heading into regional season. Can you leverage the advantages of Hollow Hill like John Bruno was able to, or will your piloting skill be crushed under the weight of the options in play? Can you devise a method to put Hollow Hill behind and keep them there, or will your plans fizzle before you can fully lay them?

I'd love to hear your thoughts and comments below both about the deck in specific and Hollow Hill in general. As always, thanks for reading.
  • bigfomlof, scantrell24, Lovecraft and 1 other like this


17 Comments

Wow. Great article. I have a Targ KOTTH deck that will never be broken up. This actually gave me several great ideas. Super thanks.

Wow. Great article. I have a Targ KOTTH deck that will never be broken up. This actually gave me several great ideas. Super thanks.


I keep trying to make a decent KOTHH deck and haven't yet gotten there. Unfortunately, I keep coming back to House of Pain.

Q: Does deck element X work better in my deck than Y in HoP?
A: Not even a little.

Q: Would my deck work better if I made it more like HoP by including A, B, or C?
A: Damn straight.

Q: Is my deck misfiring because I'm not using deck element P in concert with the copies of Q that I'm running?
A: Probably.

Q: Should I just surrender and build House of Pain?
A: have you seen what Ancient Enemies and Sacred Bonds are going for on eBay?

Inasmuch as this week's article is a rundown of all the stuff that makes HoP so bugnuts, god, that deck is so much better than anything I've come up with.

I propose Tyrion or Jon as an additional player archetype to Jamie, Ned, and Shagga...that guy who just resists net-decking with every fiber of his being and really wants to do something that not everybody else is doing...too often with tragic results.
    • WWDrakey, doulos2k and CaptainTaelos like this
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ShadowcatX2000
Dec 05 2012 02:27 PM

Q: Should I just surrender and build House of Pain?
A: have you seen what Ancient Enemies and Sacred Bonds are going for on eBay?


There's only 1 card from sacred bonds, and honestly it could be replaced fairly easily with a 3rd recruitment or a 3rd ambush from the plains. They may not be perfectly optimal but they'll get the job done. As to the ancient enemies, there's 3 cards from that, an extra dragon knight and an extra sell sword deserter (or two, or just drop the last card) would probably be perfectly acceptable substitutes.

One of the most important things in deck building with a limited card pool isn't copying every card for card, but instead understanding a card's place in a deck and seeing what other cards can fit in the spots the cards you don't have fill.
The Dragon Thieves are pretty key, giving Ambush and attachment control. But I agree with Shadowcat, you should be able to do something pretty sweet even without those old packs.

FFG HAS to reprint soon, right? It feels like we are at the place where we were when the seasons cycle came back out in terms of scarcity and ridiculous eBay prices.
I realize all that, that's the thought process with X vs Y; A, B, or C; or P & Q.

House of Pain cards I don't actually own: Street Waif (AToT), Queen's Knight (TWot5K), Aegon's Hill (TTotH), Rhaenys's Hill (TBoBB), The Red Keep (TftRK) as well as the aforementioned Clash of Arms packs and a few others I'll be picking up sooner rather than later.

That's a lot of cards to try and replace, and like I said, are the things I'm running instead doing a good enough job? Not even a little bit. And even if I did sink the couple hundred more I'd need to really get to Tier 1, I'm not loving the feeling that any decision I'd make to distinguish myself from Bruno would be perversely choosing something sub-optimal.

TL;DR: Damn you, Bruno, for building the best possible deck that exactly suits what I like to play! I don't want to be That Guy at The Next Tournament After Worlds.
Oh go ahead and be that guy... nobody will care. And if they do - they need a life. Practice with Bruno's exact deck, see which timing parts totally don't work for your play style... wait for new cards - do some adjustments and voila, you now have the House of Grim. :D

Honestly though... completely loved your rundown of your thought process... I have an Army jumper deck that I'd been working on well before House of Pain and I end up running through the same machinations. Every single tweak makes my deck look more like Bruno's. Go figure.
I think I need to give up on Sorrowful Man unless I'm running a sincere shadows deck. People see it coming a mile away, it's just not giving return on investment.

Maybe that needs to be an article, how to judge cost-effectiveness based not just on what the card itself does, but what else it does for you in concert with other things. Long Lances by itself is nothing to write home about, the WOW factor comes in what it enables *other* cards to do. To borrow a phrase from one of Bruno's interviews, you could call it "Much, and More."

TL;DR: Damn you, Bruno, for building the best possible deck that exactly suits what I like to play! I don't want to be That Guy at The Next Tournament After Worlds.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's nothing wrong with netdecking. ^_^
    • doulos2k likes this

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's nothing wrong with netdecking. ^_^


I think there's nothing wrong with netdecking as long as you're doing it for the right reason. If, like Grimwalker, you're looking to build your own deck, finding every tweak takes it closer and closer to someone else's deck and ultimately deciding that you can't make a better version of that type of deck in the current card pool, then sure, why not netdeck it? The problem comes when people just netdeck because they figure "oh this deck is good, maybe it'll work for me too" and overlook the part where the deck is nuanced and you need to have an intimate understanding with it to be able to consistently succeed using it.

Just my opinion, mind! Although to be fair I also love the deck-building process almost as much as playing, so netdecking is a general no-no for me personally anyway so I'm probably biased.
I learned a lot by netdecking the Greyjoy Maester Choke deck from Things I Do For Win a few months back...there was a learning curve from bringing it in cold and then finding out why it works and what different things are for. My conscience is assuaged by having to do some pretty big reworking to comply with recent Restricted lists.
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erocklawell
Dec 05 2012 05:08 PM
GREAT article! As a targ player, you are hitting on everything I know (but could learn more about) and everything I want to learn!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's nothing wrong with netdecking. ^_^


Good. I've netdecked your moon boy build so when you come to tulsa on Saturday I can beat you with it.
    • WarrenC and doulos2k like this
Netdecking is a great tool. I used to netdeck a lot in order to try and understand how a deck works. It teaches me card interactions I wouldn't have considered on my own. Netdecking has done more to inform my own deck building than anything else I've tried.

That said, I've never taken a netdeck to a tourney. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Apologies if this is the wrong place but a portion of the article has left me, a noob, a bit dumbfounded.

Can I get any bit of expansion in regards to "Rule by Decree."
After long searching and re-reading I was able to retain the fact that (call me illiterate) "Ambush" would allow this card to be a effective turn 1 card. (prior to reading it again I was re-reading over setup to plot phase breakdowns... assuring myself I had not been drawing to 7 when it was not the case). I fully realize that ambush is a possibility prior to doing the plot. Where I'm lost is coming up with examples of when it is a possibility.

End Question: I would greatly appreciate examples of a setup and pre-plot ambush that allows Rule by Decree to be played effectively turn 1.

Thanks!

**edit** okay so I literally hit enter, stepped away, and immediately came up with what may be the correct answer to this situation. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

If my setup contains a series of characters/locations that provide influence, prior to revealing plots (after flipping "set up" so everyone can see), during the player action phase, I would be allowed to kneel them (if necessary) to "ambush" characters into play, therefore decreasing my hand count from 7, which should be everyones hand count), allowing me to play Rule by Decree effectively....

Jeez that felt good if I'm right.
My message got duped... discard
I'm not certain if you're just looking for the timing or if you're looking for a scenario. There is nothing that can be done during setup. That's a set piece that isn't changeable. You can't Ambush during setup.

Before plots are revealed, there is a Player AAction Window. It is during this Window that you can aAmbush a character into play and then flip RBD. For instance, with the 2 influence available from KOTHH, you could drop a Dragon Knight into play pre-plot. At that point you have 6 cards and your opponent has 7. RBD will cause them to discard down to 4.

This is a low payoff gamble, IMHO. And there is always a chance your opponent sees what you'redoing and preplots his own ccard or flips his own RBD forcing you both down to 4 on that turn.

Since this article was penned, there are much better options as a Hollow Hill player for slowing down your opponents and giving you time to claw back into the game than the RBD gambit, but yes Doulos2k is explaining it well. Much and More can also do much the same work before plot 1 is revealed.