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Of Combos And Men 1: The Gloin Engine

Of Combos And Men combos sirprim

Of Combos and Men is probably the logical next step after my deckbuilding articles. Here I will be talking about certain cards and combos, that I personally find interesting, underused or just plain fun. But more importantly I will try to point out what kind of strategic considerations each combo brings for your deck(s) and how to use them. After outlining the combo there usually will be a follow up article with an actual deck, so that people can get a better feel how I integrate my combos and maybe try the deck out themselves.

Alright, off we go.

The combo I am going to talk about today, is one that I sometimes read about on forums, but seldom find any decklists floating around. The combo seems to be obvious and not weak to many people, but I still wonder why it is so rarely played (or am I imagining things?).
Given the title of my article, everybody already knows what I am talking about, the basic combo is:




Gloin (Core) + healing effects



This is the obvious part, you get damage on Gloin and you heal him again, then rinse and repeat. But you can take it one step further and "play" (which means your deck is prepared for it, just having Gloin + healing would not be enough in many cases) the following combo:





Gloin + healing effects + safe undefended attacks



By taking it this step further, you can get a lot of extra mileage out of this combo and I will explain it in more detail later.




The Basic - healing and hitpoints

Healing

Now this is the (again) obvious part. You will need healing and plenty of it, but Lore has a pretty big arsenal already. Cards like Daughter of the Nimrodel (Core) and Self Preservation (Core) are very essential for Gloin, but their effect is really welcome anyway, so putting them in your deck is not going to clutter things up as some "combo-only" cards might do in other circumstances. When viewing it from a different angle, one could say that Gloin turns those cards into non-unique versions of Steward of Gondor (Core)!
Funnily this is probably one of the only situations, where our new all-star Warden of Healing (TLD) is not superior to the Daughter (but he still is good, as any healing is welcome)

Hitpoints

Hitpoints are another obvious addition for Gloin. Just a single Citadel Plate (Core) increases the value of this combo by a large margin. Once you might even get a 2nd copy on him, cards like Lore of Imladris (Core) suddenly have the potential to heal double digits, which frankly is insane. But also cards like Boots from Erebor (KD) and
Hardy Leadership are reasonable choices as each hitpoint does indeed make a difference in this set up.


The Advanced - shadow card control

There are plenty of reasons, why you would want to make Gloin able to take undefended attacks. He takes more damage that way (yay), you safe actions by not needing to defend and he can take multiple hits per turn, which is very important. So how to do it?

canceling shadow cards

Even a single shadow card can ruin your day, especially with undefended attacks. The simple and common Dol Guldur Orcs (Core) often spells H E R O D E A T H when hitting the table as a shadow card. And since hero death is roughly the hardest thing to recover from, you better bring some Hasty Stroke (Core) or Dunedain Watcher (TDM).

discarding shadow cards

With the recently new additions of Dawn Take You All (RtM) and the Rider of the Mark (RtR) you can now discard shadow cards in advance. And while you may hit one without an effect anyway, the important part is that you now know that in advance!

knowing shadow cards

talking about knowing in advance brings me to the next section of cards. Seeing the upcoming shadow cards in a repeatable manner is actually really really strong with Gloin. Especially Dark Knowledge (Core), but also Henamarth Riversong (Core) (and similar cards) for example give you a lot of shadow effect control for your buck.

The oddities

There are some cards that work well with Gloin by offering some small "combos" of their own. One of those cards is Frodo Baggins (CatC), he can take almost any hit, so whenever an undefended attack goes wrong you likely are glad, that Frodo is around. He is a great insurance.
A different kind of "combo" would be with Keen-eyed Took (THoEM). You can declare him as a defender and after(!) the shadow effect resolved (as a defended effect) you bring him back to your hand using his ability. So in essence you already know what is coming (like Dark Knowledge) AND the effect already resolved in a more harmless manner.

Of course there might be more, but this suffices for now I guess. Feel free to comment, if I forgot something.


Summary - What this combo actually does


What does this combo do? The answer is simple. You take as many safe undefended attacks as you can heal and enjoy life.
But, what does this combo actually do on a strategic level? Well, this is also not too hard to answer, but much more important to know. This combo...

... soft-counters enemies. And has the potential to do this a lot

... generates resources at the same time (article about resources upcoming)

... gives you a sizable action advantage as you don't have to exhaust (or even kill) characters for defending against enemies (Again article upcoming)

(... taking the attacks undefended can potentially generate even more resources as Gloin does not apply his defense there)

So, this is actually a 3 for 1 combo, quite a good deal, but of course it has its set up time. Is it worth it? Well, only one way to find out ;)

The first part though (soft-countering enemies) is really important for the sake of my prior articles. With this combo in place you don't need to bring a big attacking force (hard-countering enemies) because you can very likely have 2-4 enemies just engaged with you and fueling you without really harming you. Those enemies are out-of-the-game as far as their impact is concerned.
It is almost like in martial arts: You absorb their blows and turn their force against them!

Hopefully I could encourage you to give the old Dwarf a run in one of your next decks.

Alright then, see you next week,
Sebastian

P.S.: Anybody playing a Gloin deck already? Built one after reading the article? Head over to the deckbuilder and share it with us, I bet people would like to see some variants.
  • Hastur360, bigfomlof, Reager and 1 other like this


19 Comments

The Gloin resource engine is very well documented.. but advising people to use Dark Knowledge (Core) is just such a terrible idea that it makes this article a little laughable.

Dark Knowledge (Core) doesn't deal with cards at all, it only lets you see them. So for this "combo" to work.. you are required to have a Hasty Stroke (Core) or a Dunedain Watcher (TDM) w/e on hand.. these are all "one time use" cards.. and therefor unacceptable as a engine card. (that new Rider of the Mark (RtR) card is teh best best, but it also can only be used in multiplayer and then only runs every 2 rounds.. and the monster attackes every round.

The card you want if you need this effect is A Burning Brand (CatC). Yes it requires a Song of Wisdom (CatC) but as stated.. getting a song and the brand on for a permanent effect that last the rest of the game is much better than being able to do it only a few times a game,, IF you draw the cancels at the correct time.

The other way is quest dependent.. but any quest running Goblin Sniper (Core) or Goblin Archer (KD) or the future versions of this card becomes a instant engine with out the need for cancels.

Also to sum up.. this effect REQUIRES healing, so you have to be running lore on the table otherwise this engine simply can not function past a few times... There is a lot of good healing options, Self Preservation (Core), Daughter of the Nimrodel (Core), Warden of Healing (TLD) (though the engine breaks down a turn if you are takingmore than 1 dmg with this guy)

So yeah.. you are running Lore on the table... so a song + brand is the card you are looking for...
Except every attack Gloin defends while wielding a brand will reduce resource gain by 2 (Gloin's defense). With Dark Knowledge, as Prim points out, you can safely take UNDEFENDED (even multiple undefended) attacks on Gloin and watch your resources skyrocket.

I'm not advocating Dark Knowledge, but you seem to have not even read the article before going on a burning brand rant.
    • polychrotid likes this
I think both systems have merit but i think i would use brand
The effect you are talking bout and that he is advocating requires a 2nd blocker to be available IF he is needed.. so if he isn't you have wasted will or you need to have a 3rd card type available to cancel the effect (in addition to healing). So if you wanted to do it "twice" like you say you need 2 cancels in hand and and ready as well as havign resources to pay or you need 1 character uncommitted to the quest in addition to gloin.

Brand is a permanent solution that once running will always be active, and yes the gain is not as powerful due to the defence value.. but it is constant. All you need us a monster with 3+ attack for 100% safe and constant resource gain every single turn.

The Gloin resource engine is very well documented..

Would you mind giving me a pointer? It is hard to keep up with all the places this game gets discussed.

but advising people to use Dark Knowledge (Core) is just such a terrible idea that it makes this article a little laughable.

I am not exactly advising people to take Dark Knowledge over other cards, you know. I am pointing out options. But I actually really do like it a lot with Gloin.

Dark Knowledge (Core) doesn't deal with cards at all, it only lets you see them. So for this "combo" to work.. you are required to have a Hasty Stroke (Core) or a Dunedain Watcher (TDM) w/e on hand..

That is exactly the point I guess, knowing the shadow card is already a big impact. No shadow effect >> take undefended. Some attack boosting nastyness >> throw some Snowbourn Scout in between. To make one of these two decisions, you really don't need Hasty Stroke or the likes. But they of course do their thing and are a great backup.

The card you want if you need this effect is A Burning Brand (CatC). Yes it requires a Song of Wisdom (CatC) but as stated.. getting a song and the brand on for a permanent effect that last the rest of the game is much better than being able to do it only a few times a game,, IF you draw the cancels at the correct time.

I hardly ever considered Burning Brand for Gloin, the reason being that he takes most of his attacks undefended. The way I most often use him, is to send him questing and then let him soak up the attacks. But he can of course defend in emergencies, if you don't send him questing.

The other way is quest dependent.. but any quest running Goblin Sniper (Core) or Goblin Archer (KD) or the future versions of this card becomes a instant engine with out the need for cancels.

Those snipers are very nice of course, but they are no requisite for this to work.

Also to sum up.. this effect REQUIRES healing, so you have to be running lore on the table otherwise this engine simply can not function past a few times...

I am honestly confused, did I say to not play Lore somewhere in the article?

I think both systems have merit but i think i would use brand

I might try and sum up why I (personally) don't like Burning Brand on Gloin:
1. You are only getting 1 attack on him that way.
2. You get one less resource from that attack.
3. You have to use his action for doing so.

What I intend to do with Gloin in this setup is the following:
1. Absorb as many attacks as possible (roughly between 2 and 4 possible I'd say)
2. Get as many resources as possible that way.
3. Safe some actions by not defending.
how do i quote in comments?

I am honestly confused, did I say to not play Lore somewhere in the article?

Of course not.. I was just trying to illustrate that, as you said, to use this you are running lore.. so you already are running the spheres for Brand.. So choosing brand over DK doesn't change anything in your deck it is a strait card swap.


I hardly ever considered Burning Brand for Gloin, the reason being that he takes most of his attacks undefended. The way I most often use him, is to send him questing and then let him soak up the attacks. But he can of course defend in emergencies, if you don't send him questing.


Questing with Gloin is strong.. spesh with Dain boosting his will to 3. The problem is that what if it is a terrible shadow card and you have no ready cancel. This means you either do not quest with gloin unless you have a cancel in hand and ready to play or you need to have a chump blocker that you do not send on the quest. Remember that there is many shadow cards that do not add dmg but really suck.. your chump could be discarded / destroyed and that dmg will fall on gloin anway and this time kill him, or a monster added to staging area, or attachments discarded.

What I intend to do with Gloin in this setup is the following:
1. Absorb as many attacks as possible (roughly between 2 and 4 possible I'd say)
2. Get as many resources as possible that way.
3. Safe some actions by not defending.


You may get more resources in a single go.. but it is so risky. To absorb say 2 undefended attacks you are required to have 2 chump blockers or two cancels in hand and rdy to cast "just in case" the shadow card blows you out. for 4.. you need 4. LoTR is notorious for "flip the card game over" effects happening and most deck ideas are designed to minimise this.. this "combo" infact increases the ods of a blow out... any time you try to use it with out the chump or the blocker you are opening yourself to a game over.. and as i said above even a chump is not 100% safe as there are a few cards that will discard it instantly.

might try and sum up why I (personally) don't like Burning Brand on Gloin:
1. You are only getting 1 attack on him that way.
2. You get one less resource from that attack.
3. You have to use his action for doing so.

BUT this way the effect is permanent. 100% safe, and provides a constant resource gain forever and as it is so important I'll say it one more time.. at ZERO risk. It dose use up Gloin though effectively removing him form the game in a way... this kinda like a tap effect on a hero. So yes that is defiantly the weak side of this version of the effect... Still as you can gain such constant and regular resources every turn for the rest of the gaim (like SoG) you should be able to get out allies easily to negate this draw back.

how do i quote in comments?

There was an extra
[/quote]
in your post that was throwing off the parser, fixed it for you.
thanks dark
I understand where you are coming from, so I am just going to point out some things, that do not add up in my mind:

1. This article is a combo outline not a complete deck. Neither do I write that my deck will contain Dark Knowledge, nor that it does not contain cards like Hasty Stroke. The deck in fact is not finished yet and still in testing.

2. Switching (a potential) Dark Knowledge for Burning Brand does change quite a lot, because you are running a completely different strategy now (defended vs undefended attacks). Not saying that is a bad idea, but is very different.

3. There are more ways to deal with those "game ending" treacheries (say Sleeping Sentry (RtR), thats probably the most devastating one). I am going to try and construct an example: Dark Knowledge reveals Sleeping Sentry and you are about to get hosed, but now you can
a) Feint (Core) the attack
b ) Sneak Gandalf or some other form of direct damage to kill the attacker
c) Play Grim Resolve (Core) before your enemy attacks. You might even let somebody else attack first in order to get the resources for Grim Resolve.

You see there is a lot to do (and I haven't listed all options), but those options only opened up because of Dark Knowledge revealing the shadow card first.

4. While you'd want to have a 100% security in every aspect of the game, this will not be possible at all times. I do agree that there is a risk to this strategy, but it feels "manageable" to me. Considering that roughly 50% of the cards contain no shadow effect at all, some shadow effects are blanks or laughable (River Ninglor (THFG) for example) and then some of the potentially deadly (Dol Guldur Orcs (Core)) can be made "un"-deadly (with Citadel Plate (Core) most of the time), there are not enough really bad shadow effects left to build your whole deck around them I think. (And see point 3.)

Hope that helps a bit.
    • Hastur360 likes this
You have given me a lot of food for thought with Dark Knowledge. In so far as healing options, I prefer Healing Herbs to Self Preservation. Use Healing Herbs on Gloin, pull it back into your hand with Erebor Hammersmith. Magic.
    • Hastur360 and sirprim like this
I do think calling the article laughable is a little harsh. Also it is never a terrible idea. It is an idea that like most ideas can have merit. You don't know how well the combination of cards work until you build decks around it and actually play them. Then of course they could do spectacularly well or be completely terrible based on the scenario you play even.

Sirprim's idea has merit and is a different route to a similar means, as well as Booored's suggestion of Burning Brand for increased minimal risk to the same means. As players we are just looking at a combo idea, and this idea could be good in many different situations, i.e. multi-player vs solo play.

I think it is fair to give a different interpretation of a combo but I don't think it is fair to be so harsh about it.
    • bigfomlof likes this
I actually prefer Dark knowledge. Burning Brand requires the song and you are spending a total of 3 resources for what? maybe cancel a shadow card that has no shadow effect? At least with Dark knowledge you know what is coming and act accordignly.
Terrible cocky actitude by Booored btw
the point is you can NOT act accordingly if you do not have a card in hand to deal with it. Even chump blocking is opening your self to a end game card flip. The Dark Knowledge requires you to have not only Dark Knowledge witch is a 1 cost but have a hasty stroke witch is a 1 cost and you can only have 3 copies in for an entire deck ... the other options are even more expensive.. and these effects are a constant bleed of resources that need to be cast each time. (assuming you have them to cast)

I can see where this article is coming from I just think it is a really weak combo, one that not only opens you to being wiped out, the combo itself isn't even a "real" combo as it is not a constant combo.. you will only be able to use it for a limited amount of times in a game.

SirPrim has made some good arguments but I remain unconvinced that they have much value. I still think that in in pretty much every case running brand will result in more resources, and most importantly safer plays and in contrast ot your comment, Reager.. it is FAR cheaper.
I know that I am not going to convince you, so I am not pretending to try ;)
But the next example actually is a repeatable way to "cancel" shadow cards.

What I am doing in the current iteration of that deck is using Gondorian Spearman (Core). Since I safe some actions on not defending, I often find myself able to bring the enemies engaged with me to their last hitpoint. Now whenever Dark Knowledge reveals a game-ending shadow effect, the Spearman steps forward and the problem is solved. Quite funny actually.
Alright, it looks like the final deck is going to contain Dark Knowledge (Core). And since I am feeling frisky today, it might very well be in triplicates ;)
I think any "engine" card should be in triplicate.
I guess you are right. But just as boored pointed out, this is no engine in the 100% repeatable sense, so for my purposes I might take many different "solutions" to shadow cards in 1x or 2x quantity as long as I end up with enough of those in total. But as it often is the case, key cards do end up in triplicates.

That is actually an interesting topic as there are some cards coming out, that have a roughly similar effect to some others, but might give you some flexibility in the big picture. For example a deck that runs 3 copies of Feint (Core) could think about replacing one with Fresh Tracks (TLD) for various reasons.
Photo
HeavyKaragh
Aug 07 2012 08:35 AM

Alright, it looks like the final deck is going to contain Dark Knowledge (Core). And since I am feeling frisky today, it might very well be in triplicates ;)

A little suggestion: when listing the deck, you should give a proper replacement for cards not available in 3 copies in the Core Set, like Dark Knowledge (Core). These could be listed this way:
3xDark Knowledge (Core) (1xHenamarth Riversong (Core), 1xRumour from the Earth (RtM))
    • sirprim likes this