2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 121

~ So... when this CP comes you guys will spend the episode ragging on this card like you did with House of Dreams, right?

I just find it kind of funny how much time was spent in the podcast on judging and attacking the design on House of Dreams, and now one of you guys goes and makes a card that is pretty much auto-include in every deck. At least I don't see a reason to not play Coldhands, no matter the deck, just for the effortless attachment control and anti-Voltron element.

Funnily enough, now even Greyjoy has a nice attachment control card, one of the things the House has always been missing. That's another piece of House flavor gone again, right there. Let's face it, everybody having easy access to everything makes the game pretty boring.

The worst side here? There are no conditions that have to be met for this to work. In the easiest scenario, just play Coldhand and choose to remove a target character and Coldhands himself from play, both characters go moribund:remove, all attachments on the character go to moribund:discard, and both get returned back into play. Except for all the attachments on the other character, that is. Talk about anti-Maester silver-bullet.

And that's not even mentioning that Coldhands can be used just to empty some character from power/gold counters if you just want to do that. So... anti-Brotherhood silver bullet on the side.

For 2 cost this card just does quite lot (too much) and there is no real downside to running it. Probably the most flexible 2 cost unique in the game currently, and should take it's place next Varys as one of those cards with the text 'expect to see this every game' printed on it. ~Man, that's sure the make the game more interesting and pump-up the House Flavor!

Unfortunatly i kinda agree.

I'm sorry to say, me too.

Sounds to me that we're prematurely entering into the third phase of the now traditional AGoT New Cards Reaction Cycle, a behaviour pattern that all players at some point find themselves following, sometimes against their will:

Phase 1: When are we going to get some new decent cards? The current cycle was ****.
Phase 2: Wow! Look at these new cards we're getting soon! They look amazing and will be auto includes in every deck I build.
Phase 3: WTF? This kind of power creep is terrible for the game: these new auto include cards will ruin the current meta!
Phase 4: Ban/restrict/errata these new cards that are making a mockery of regional results! FFG are to blame for not addressing this problem.
Phase 5: Actually, there's plenty of ways to deal with these new cards now we've had time to play with them. The card pool is now more diverse and interesting. In fact... (return to Phase 1)

It's a beast of a card alright.

Technically, both Coldhands and the other chosen characters are moribund:removed from game when the lasting effect to return them to play happens(they haven't left the game yet), so how would they switch back to coming into play during the same window? The other thing is, if he can't be used to discard attachments, power, etc like that, then both Coldhands and the chosen characters would be removed from the game permanently, which would be a lot worse than just being used as power and attachment control.

Sounds to me that we're prematurely entering into the third phase of the now traditional AGoT New Cards Reaction Cycle, a behaviour pattern that all players at some point find themselves following, sometimes against their will:

Phase 1: When are we going to get some new decent cards? The current cycle was ****.
Phase 2: Wow! Look at these new cards we're getting soon! They look amazing and will be auto includes in every deck I build.
Phase 3: WTF? This kind of power creep is terrible for the game: these new auto include cards will ruin the current meta!
Phase 4: Ban/restrict/errata these new cards that are making a mockery of regional results! FFG are to blame for not addressing this problem.
Phase 5: Actually, there's plenty of ways to deal with these new cards now we've had time to play with them. The card pool is now more diverse and interesting. In fact... (return to Phase 1)

It's a beast of a card alright.

]

Well personnaly i dont agree with your post. I never spoke against the current cycle and i dont ask about ban or erata.

The problem for me is that the card is a auto include in almost every deck. They even say it in the podcast aout always taking one or two.

For me this kind of card is not cool. His reponse is strong but it s not to hard to work around it. The problem is that i dont see any reasonfor not taking him in every house.

Coldhands should have cost 3. That's just way too good for only 2 gold, and I have to agree that neutral, playable-in-every-deck cards make me cringe a little.

Technically, both Coldhands and the other chosen characters are moribund:removed from game when the lasting effect to return them to play happens(they haven't left the game yet), so how would they switch back to coming into play during the same window? The other thing is, if he can't be used to discard attachments, power, etc like that, then both Coldhands and the chosen characters would be removed from the game permanently, which would be a lot worse than just being used as power and attachment control.

Is that like Call of the Three-Eyed Crow (AJE) anyways?

Also, from the FAQ with regards to moving duplicates, “If one of your unique cards is about to leave play..." so you can save from this effect.

~ So... when this CP comes you guys will spend the episode ragging on this card like you did with House of Dreams, right?

I just find it kind of funny how much time was spent in the podcast on judging and attacking the design on House of Dreams, and now one of you guys goes and makes a card that is pretty much auto-include in every deck. At least I don't see a reason to not play Coldhands, no matter the deck, just for the effortless attachment control and anti-Voltron element.

Funnily enough, now even Greyjoy has a nice attachment control card, one of the things the House has always been missing. That's another piece of House flavor gone again, right there. Let's face it, everybody having easy access to everything makes the game pretty boring.

The worst side here? There are no conditions that have to be met for this to work. In the easiest scenario, just play Coldhand and choose to remove a target character and Coldhands himself from play, both characters go moribund:remove, all attachments on the character go to moribund:discard, and both get returned back into play. Except for all the attachments on the other character, that is. Talk about anti-Maester silver-bullet.

And that's not even mentioning that Coldhands can be used just to empty some character from power/gold counters if you just want to do that. So... anti-Brotherhood silver bullet on the side.

For 2 cost this card just does quite lot (too much) and there is no real downside to running it. Probably the most flexible 2 cost unique in the game currently, and should take it's place next Varys as one of those cards with the text 'expect to see this every game' printed on it. ~Man, that's sure the make the game more interesting and pump-up the House Flavor!

We'll at least have Ygritte to rag on during that episode as well.

And while we were absolutely harsh on HoD during the episode it wasn't completely because it was a great card, it was because the card design (in our opinions) negated an entire archtype in playing a deck without an agenda. I'm still shocked when I see a deck without an agenda (aside from maybe a Stark deck running Maege and other no-agenda tricks) since I still feel like it's usually better to play HoD (assuming you have an in-house unique location of cost 2 or more in your deck).

There were also some no agenda tricks we have now that we didn't have 8 months ago (the armies specifically but there may be others) that have changed perceptions on HoD.

The card is admittedly really good.

I just can't wait for the Tulsa regional when I use Coldhands to remove Brett's Arrogant Contender from the game.

#epic

As soon as this pack comes out every single deck drops 2 cards and takes Ygritte and Coldhands.

I just can't wait for the Tulsa regional when I use Coldhands to remove Brett's Arrogant Contender from the game.

#epic

Not even I would play Arrogant Contender.

I am not sure if I overreact to that card, but I honestly think that this is the strongest card I have seen in this game since it became a LCG. It is extremly versatile:
A character is in your way with a recurring effect? Play Coldhands.
An enemy character threads you with much power on them? Play Cold Hands.
You want to kill a character, but it has a dup? Play Cold Hands and then kill him.
Your enemy has played attachments on your or the enemys chars? Play Cold Hands.
You have characters with ETB or LTB effects? Play Cold Hands.
You want a girlfriend? Okay, he can't do this. This would be pretty OP for a 2G card, don't you think .

I will definitly play it at least as a 2 of in my Bara BS decks, just to have the missing attachment hate and loop Dale Seaworth.

yeah this coldhands should be non-unique and say neutral house card only. That way neutral house card decks could have something powerful.

He has to be unique but added support for neutral house is certainly interesting... I would say to balance him from being an auto-include though he should just be another no agenda character, which I would say is also a little nedly.

Coldhands reminds me of a card that would have been from Winter Edition in almost every way.

However I agree he is very powerful and is probably an auto include in decks, I like him in a way because how just one character can wreak you. Now thinking of a lot of greyjoy characters but like for a martell player to get rid of Baelor Blacktyde (TIoR) which can completely destroy your deck. Or a rush deck needed to get rid of Gylbert Farwynd (GotC) so can actually get your characters on the board. It is a very powerful card but I like it that can get rid of characters that completely destroy your deck, and I have never been a fan of decks that rely on one card, like Cersie, or Hyper Viper decks and this makes those decks look at secondary options.

Just playing little devil's advocate

On a side note, how does remove from play work? if it is a unique character can you play a new one if it is removed from play?

https://www.facebook...cation=timeline

from the facebook page in case yall want to see an image.

~Let's see if the community can get this restricted pre-release like TLS?

@Zeiler - I think you're a little off when you say that HoD single-handedly destroyed the viability of no-agenda decks. The reality is that they were never really competitively viable even when it was released because running an agenda was so much more efficient. HoD is not the default from no-agenda; any agenda is default from no-agenda. And to be fair, this card (in conjunction with Ygritte) is destroying* an archetype. I doubt we'll ever see a competitive brotherhood deck again.

*EDIT: Just to be safe, I will rephrase to say "will destroy". Brotherhood has one Nationals left to do its bucket list.

~Let's see if the community can get this restricted pre-release like TLS?

@Zeiler - I think you're a little off when you say that HoD single-handedly destroyed the viability of no-agenda decks. The reality is that they were never really competitively viable even when it was released because running an agenda was so much more efficient. HoD is not the default from no-agenda; any agenda is default from no-agenda. And to be fair, this card (in conjunction with Ygritte) is destroying an archetype. I doubt we'll ever see a competitive brotherhood deck again.

well if this cycle is supporting old themes there maybe one from the Brotherhood without banner's cycle idk if they have spoiled all six packs of next cycle yet. Maybe brotherhood will get more Beric protection or other viable characters then Beric to store power on.

~Let's see if the community can get this restricted pre-release like TLS?

@Zeiler - I think you're a little off when you say that HoD single-handedly destroyed the viability of no-agenda decks. The reality is that they were never really competitively viable even when it was released because running an agenda was so much more efficient. HoD is not the default from no-agenda; any agenda is default from no-agenda. And to be fair, this card (in conjunction with Ygritte) is destroying an archetype. I doubt we'll ever see a competitive brotherhood deck again.

Let's be fair, Brotherhood hasn't been a relevant deck type in years

As far as HoD is concerned I feel like it is the easiest agenda to just add into any no-agenda deck. While agendas like TLV and PBtT are others that require comparatively little extra work to add into a deck there is at least extra work involved. Even if it is making sure that you're skewing your characters more heavily towards intrigue icons or physically adding 25 cards to a deck it is still more involved than taking any no-agenda deck that runs any in-house unique location of cost 2 or more and adding in HoD.

Let's be fair, Brotherhood hasn't been a relevant deck type in years

Perhaps, but at least I could blame the designers for that prior to this card. You've now become a scapegoat.

As far as HoD is concerned I feel like it is the easiest agenda to just add into any no-agenda deck. While agendas like TLV and PBtT are others that require comparatively little extra work to add into a deck there is at least extra work involved. Even if it is making sure that you're skewing your characters more heavily towards intrigue icons or physically adding 25 cards to a deck it is still more involved than taking any no-agenda deck that runs any in-house unique location of cost 2 or more and adding in HoD.

This has been discussed elsewhere I'm sure, but you continue to overlook the fact that setups are significantly impacted. You have to take into account that you can no longer drop 4-5 cost cards on setup, and 3 cost cards are much more of a detriment, especially now that refugees are restricted. I'm guessing that HoD probably screws your setup by 2 cards on average unless you take that into account in your deckbuilding. That is a lot more work than throwing in an extra 25 cards. Bringing us back, once again, to how dumb TLV is. lol

This has been discussed elsewhere I'm sure, but you continue to overlook the fact that setups are significantly impacted. You have to take into account that you can no longer drop 4-5 cost cards on setup, and 3 cost cards are much more of a detriment, especially now that refugees are restricted. I'm guessing that HoD probably screws your setup by 2 cards on average unless you take that into account in your deckbuilding. That is a lot more work than throwing in an extra 25 cards. Bringing us back, once again, to how dumb TLV is. lol

While I don't play HoD often (well, I don't play much in general but that's neither here nor there) the few times that I have played it or played against it I've never seen setups any worse than any other deck. Taking the HoD location into a count it's probably around 4-ish cards which seems decent to me. Someone that plays more than once a month may have better insight but I haven't seen a HoD deck need much setup help.

It almost feels like stacking power on characters period isn't a safe thing to do. This card and Ygrit feels to me like the meta is about to shift back to a slow control format. I'm fine with that actually. XP