2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 142

Early thoughts (40 mins in):

1. Meera is restricted, so let go that it's a champ card.

2. Counting Favors operates as a functional 1 claim Negotiations.

3. 5 cards deeper sounds good until I turn 1 Desperate Measures and am 5 in, too. Reset then and I'm ahead because all of my stuff survives in hand or on agenda.

4. Bungled Orders lets me Rally Cry at the start of turn 2. HoD? Pfft.

5. Bleeds isn't in Lanny or Bara KotHH. Targ can go hard jumper. Greyjoy can use their new event. All you're turning off is Martell. Favorable Ground remains mean.

6. New cards aren't huge, perhaps (besides cards at command), but we are finding new, abusive combos regularly (fav ground, bungled orders, all Greg's deck stuff).

7. Sorry I distracted you, Will.

This is all from my opinion mind you...

I would just errata KotHH to you can only play cards from your House cards faction and Neutral.

The characterless deck is the driver, because that goes so strongly against the spirit of this game. Playing the game against decks like that makes it feel like playing Magic, and getting away from huge combo decks is a big reason I looked for a different game in the first place.

Worst episode ever.

In all seriousness, I hope that I did the pro-restriction side justice. Thanks again for having me on the show.

1. I'm a Lannister- I hate Stark.

2. That is actually a pretty good comparison. So the question is, does that mean a claim 1 Negotiations would be terrible and unplayed (something I really don't believe) or does it mean that more people ought to be trying Counting Coppers out in the same types of decks that wanted the pre-restricted Negotiations?

3. Sure, but you only actually get one of the cards from DM. Don't get me wrong, it's great at getting you a particular card you want or need, but it's not great on aggregate card advantage. In fact, it's CA neutral, since you spent a card to do it. Plus, it doesn't net you those setup resources. It's worth noting that it's 3 turns before KotHH makes up that difference in gold (though ambush in Targ can muck with that by using influence).

4. Yup, that's one that I hadn't been seeing down here, so now that it's brought to my attention, I do admit that's a pretty high strength play.

5. Sure, I wouldn't expect restricting Westeros Bleeds to wipe out all the decks. Just to chance the cost/benefit ratio for enough of them to change the landscape. Going hard jumper for Targ instead of event resets eases up the pressure on aggro decks and lets them push harder on their normally card intensive control methods. Forcing GJ to rely on their new event instead isn't a bad idea either as it's a bit easier to play around and keep some of your board presence.

6. Fair enough.

7. Haha, no worries.

First off, I think it was a great episode and I enjoyed it very much.

The one thing where I am definitly against is the restriction of Westeroes Bleeds. Like PulseGlazer said, the only thing that this will do is screw over controlish builds of Martell, because they don't have ways of removing a high amount of characters like Targ can.

Yesterday I played around with the bara cardpool with the new spoiled cards and a BS deck with the Harrenhal counters Westeroes Bleeds pretty hard. Stark for example gets cards that have abilities that trigger when the card enters/leaves play to negate the impact.

The only problems I have with KotHH is how difficult it is to hate on it, how it makes adding "under your command" cards a liability (and almost useless against them) and how it completely hates on many strategies like decks with the new agendas and other control strategies in general.

Without KotHH, "control" decks will almost entirely disappear and that isn't good for the game. The meta is in a great place right now. I think Pentoshi Manor should be made unique and my change to KotHH I said in the above comment, but otherwise I would not change a thing.

Without KotHH, "control" decks will almost entirely disappear and that isn't good for the game. The meta is in a great place right now. I think Pentoshi Manor should be made unique and my change to KotHH I said in the above comment, but otherwise I would not change a thing.

This is correct.

Without KotHH, "control" decks will almost entirely disappear and that isn't good for the game. The meta is in a great place right now. I think Pentoshi Manor should be made unique and my change to KotHH I said in the above comment, but otherwise I would not change a thing.

And what leads you to believe this? This cycle has two agendas that are entirely based around control and Lannister No Agenda is T1?

Why does everyone hate the Character lite deck so much ? It is different , innovative and thinking outside the box. I applaud the deck and its inginuity. Why are we hating on progressive thinking. The game can be played many ways, that is what makes it great. If you put it in a bubble and only play one way it would get pretty stale !
of course that is just me

Because if decks like these are good the game degenerates into rock/paper/scissors. There will be some decks that never beat and some decks that will always beat it, but it will never be an interesting game.

@KotHH: I fear that it will be restricted, but I think it would be awful. The thing is this game has basicly three kinds of ressources, gold, cards and influence. There is a draw phase in the game, in which you can draw 2 cards without doing anything, so this ressource is guaranteed. Nearly every plot has a positive income, so to get gold you only need to play a plot in your plot phase. Influence, well there is no inherent mechanic in the game that gives to influence, you have to draw into it, which is awful and the opponent can also take your influence away quite easily. So KotHH is needed to provide influence reliably.

Decks should be reliable, because then playing the game is actually fun.

If anything, restrict Bungled Orders.

I don''t buy the rock paper scissors argument. That could be said of many matchups. (Targ burn VS Lanny Shadows for instance). Sometimes you have a bad matchup. Maybe I am alone,but I love to see interesting new ways to use the cards. It makes you think what if, or why not. I am not saying that some times the combinations are wicked good and may need to be looked at, but new achetypes bring a new angle to the game and keep it fresh and new. Like I said I may be alone and this is just my opinion, but I like the diversity and change from the norm. The game needs to change or it will become stagnant (however it should be a slow gradual change). I am not saying your opinion is wrong, I just disagree with it.

1. I'm a Lannister- I hate Stark.

2. That is actually a pretty good comparison. So the question is, does that mean a claim 1 Negotiations would be terrible and unplayed (something I really don't believe) or does it mean that more people ought to be trying Counting Coppers out in the same types of decks that wanted the pre-restricted Negotiations?

3. Sure, but you only actually get one of the cards from DM. Don't get me wrong, it's great at getting you a particular card you want or need, but it's not great on aggregate card advantage. In fact, it's CA neutral, since you spent a card to do it. Plus, it doesn't net you those setup resources. It's worth noting that it's 3 turns before KotHH makes up that difference in gold (though ambush in Targ can muck with that by using influence).

4. Yup, that's one that I hadn't been seeing down here, so now that it's brought to my attention, I do admit that's a pretty high strength play.

5. Sure, I wouldn't expect restricting Westeros Bleeds to wipe out all the decks. Just to chance the cost/benefit ratio for enough of them to change the landscape. Going hard jumper for Targ instead of event resets eases up the pressure on aggro decks and lets them push harder on their normally card intensive control methods. Forcing GJ to rely on their new event instead isn't a bad idea either as it's a bit easier to play around and keep some of your board presence.

6. Fair enough.

7. Haha, no worries.

1. It still invalidates the champ card argument.

2.People are stupid and have been told that Counting Favors is Melee only, so they don't run it even though they should.

3. Yes, but you specifically made the point of being "5 cards deeper." That's well and good. You're the same cards deep with uninteruptable resource advantage. One board wipe, whether character or location, or even First Snow, and it's easy to argue you're now ahead, even at worst.

5. The idea isn't to wipe all decks, but decrease them by making it a cost benefit analysis. Also instead of Restricted Bleeds and 3 other cards for their interactions with KOTHH, just restrict KOTHH and get on with life

.

Without KotHH, "control" decks will almost entirely disappear and that isn't good for the game. The meta is in a great place right now. I think Pentoshi Manor should be made unique and my change to KotHH I said in the above comment, but otherwise I would not change a thing.

Lannister No Agenda - Control. Targ Summer - Control. Targ Dragonpit - Control. Targ Daeny's Chambers - Control. Choke - Control. Bara KotHH (which loses next to nothing) - Control. Martell Bloodlust? Control. Martell Plot Cycling/Shadows? Control. BS Decks tend to be a combination of control and aggro. Maesters are still a thing if you pack cancels. You're just wrong here. KotHH is the BEST control option, but were it restricted, other control options would simply get better.

I don''t buy the rock paper scissors argument. That could be said of many matchups. (Targ burn VS Lanny Shadows for instance). Sometimes you have a bad matchup. Maybe I am alone,but I love to see interesting new ways to use the cards. It makes you think what if, or why not. I am not saying that some times the combinations are wicked good and may need to be looked at, but new achetypes bring a new angle to the game and keep it fresh and new. Like I said I may be alone and this is just my opinion, but I like the diversity and change from the norm. The game needs to change or it will become stagnant (however it should be a slow gradual change). I am not saying your opinion is wrong, I just disagree with it.

The game simply isn't Rock-Paper-Scissors. With Dragonpit, I've beat multiple Tunnels decks. I've also lost to No Agenda Lanny with Targ KotHH. The best match ups are only 70-30, pending pilot skill.

2.- I was running counting favours in my alliance deck at gencon with great success and that allowed me to use pentoshi as my restricted which helped a lot. I have said is good since TLV and argued it was the best weapon against negotiations pre restricting it.

My opinion on errata and restriction

Errata is for cards that are misprinted i.e. have typo’s, symbols/traits missing and for cards that break the game. Errata should not change what the card does essentially but should limit how or/and when the card can interact with the game, so that it no longer breaks the game.

Restriction is for cards that are or would be played too much, or cards who’s interaction is deemed to be overpowering (as seems to be the case of the current restricted list).

KOTHH

Should it be errata’d?

Ok does it have a typo? Missing trait or symbol? Probably not (I’m saying probably as I don’t have the card in front of me)
Does it break the game? Not in my opinion, so therefore errata is not required

Should it be restricted?

Is it being played too much? Possibly
Is it’s interaction overpowering? Again not in my opinion ATM but this could change with the addition of cards to the pool.

So this opens up another conversation on when is a card played too much?


Thanks 2c1c for the podcasts, keep up the good work.

Happy New Year to everyone

I do not see any errata for a card that has been functioning as intended for the entire 3 years of it's existence. This is of course with exception to cards that had been banned.

If it's not functioning as intended, then errata makes sense for balancing and limitations to abusive combinations with other cards. Right now I just think the agenda has a ton of support and this is why it sees a lot of play.

The char-lite/less deck and Bara KotHH are the two decks which have recently done very well. As pointed out above restricting it impacts these two decks the least. While it hurts Targ and Martell the most. So what exactly are you gaining by restricting it other than killing a fun deck type for two houses that have not been overpowered anyway?

The meta has a good balance right now and a new cycle is approaching. Leave things well enough alone and make small tweaks, not sweeping changes. Restrict First Snow and/or Bungled Orders to open up creativity in how KotHH has to deal with its first plot or two. That enhances play and leaves the core of what makes the deck fun to play intact.

Ok, but then don't cry when control gets hated out by other powerfull cards, like half of the community did with TLV. And I get the feeling that it this can happen with the next cycle (Harrenhal and Catelyn as indicators).

If things never changed that would be boring! I am liking what I am seeing spoiled so far in the next cycle both on the aggro and control side of things.

So I am a bit behind. First of all thanks to the guys on 2c1c for taking time to post a podcast during the holiday season.

I dont log as many games as most of you unfortunately. But I think KOTHH is fine. I think it is its turn in the sun so to speak. Although I certainly hope that some of the newer cards coming out breath life into other builds. Im not a real fan of A noble Cause, but the Old Way looks intriguing. Maybe the new Champs should look into designing an Agenda as their champ card. I may be wrong but isnt KOTHH the only one thus far? Something that does what KOTHH does for Control, but for Aggro or Rush.

Wait to do anything to KOTHH until we see how it performs in the early regional season. Re-evaluate before Gencon.

House of Dreams is also a champion card.

@KotHH: I fear that it will be restricted, but I think it would be awful. The thing is this game has basicly three kinds of ressources, gold, cards and influence. There is a draw phase in the game, in which you can draw 2 cards without doing anything, so this ressource is guaranteed. Nearly every plot has a positive income, so to get gold you only need to play a plot in your plot phase. Influence, well there is no inherent mechanic in the game that gives to influence, you have to draw into it, which is awful and the opponent can also take your influence away quite easily. So KotHH is needed to provide influence reliably.

Decks should be reliable, because then playing the game is actually fun.

If anything, restrict Bungled Orders.

I have been thinking about it more, and whereas I used to be a proponent of restriction of KotHH, I have moved away from that simply because KotHH provides so many avenues of exploration in deckbuilding. However, I do believe that that is getting closer and closer to being "solved" because there are so many obvious choices that synergize with it. For example, I agree with restricting Bungled Orders because it is almost always played now out of KotHH exclusively because it buys an additional turn which mitigates the biggest drawback of KotHH. KotHH's drawbacks have been card advantage, because of setup mostly, and slightly because of a larger decksize on turn 1. The addition of cards like Desperate Measures, Much and More, draw cards like Meraxes, etc. have done a lot to essentially eliminate this drawback. The other drawback is a lack of board presence on turn 1 and turn 2, which has made it susceptible to rush/aggro in the past (but we all know that those have not really been considered tier 1 in the past). Greg first tried to get around this by including reinforcements (!) in his deck in 2011, but with the printing of better events, plots became the best answer to slow the game down until the agenda's drawbacks were mitigated, which happens naturally over a long game mostly because of Valar. Restricting KotHH would just limit it's perceived viability for creative builds without really doing anything to answer the problem of creating an easily exploitable way to abuse resets with no relative drawback. That is to say, double-edged events/plots like Westeros Bleeds, Favorable Grounds, Valar, Bungled Orders, Rally Cry, and others, are no longer a risk for the KotHH player. And this turns KotHH into an agenda with essentially no drawback.

House of Dreams is also a champion card.

It's interesting that House of Dreams was so subtle in its drawback that the community immediately decried it as broken and designers felt that putting direct answers to it into the cardpool was the best course of action, whereas the "strong" drawback to KotHH allowed for interactions with other cards over the years to fly below the radar so long that they have become almost acceptable today. The same thing happened with TLV but I think the lack of sufficient "drawback" was discovered faster because of the larger community.

We just need to realize that the drawback of KotHH isn't really a drawback in the current cardpool, and for that reason, I would advocate for restriction of those cards that overly mitigate the drawback.

These things always come with some level of bias. As a Targ player, of course I think KotHH is OK right now. I'm also not surprised that the esteemed guest host here, a Lannister devotee, wants to see it gone. Targ burn is the natural predator to Lannister, and so on.

What would happen with no hollow hill? Baratheon goes back to 6th. Martell has one (1) competitive build. The Greyjoy monstrosity is fine (just losing Search and Detain). Targaryen has to reassess things, and so on.

I think the printing of more no agenda support such as Alleras also helps mitigate the Hollow Hill advantages, but the printing of fire and forget control kills decktypes hard for Hollow Hill to handle (looking here at Coldhands, etc.). I remember that I didn't play Hollow Hill at our last regional, not because of TLV, but because I was worried about some superfast Lannister PBJ voltrony stuff in our meta. Speed kills a slow deck. SInce then, Bungled has been popularized and the Cards at Commands plots have come out. With Rally Cry, coldhands, and searching your control with Desperate Measures, those fast decks are no longer a problem.

Noble cause won't be a problem either, since you can just First Snow them to death.

All that to say--I think Hollow Hill is OK. It's good in a few houses, and at the risk of parroting Damon's defense of TLV, the fact that you see a card over and over doesn't mean it's OP. You can use the card tons of different ways and for that I think we need it in the meta.

I'm not as sold on whether or not Rally Cry is good for the game, and I think Desperate Measures is a degenerate card. But that's just me!

Do you really think Baratheon would become the 6th best house if KotHH got restricted? I thought Black Sails was T1 and quite competitive.

That being said, I really don't like cards like Rally Cry or Befouled River that end up being an immediate advantage from the beginning of the game. It just seems silly to me to be able to bring an opponent down to your "disadvantage" level right from the beginning of the game and now you have permanent +2 gold, influence, and initiative while the opponent has to recover from the use of 1 or 2 plots.

Knights of the Hollow Hill (MotM) is fine.

Knights of the Hollow Hill (MotM) is fine.

...in and of itself.