2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 143

Well. Second place in Stahleck was a Maester deck...

Does anyone from the European metas do any podcasting? I'd love to hear the perspective of those across the narrow sea.

I agree with Kyle here that it makes sense to just take TMP itselt off the list and let players choose the Conclave, Tin Link, or something else as their restricted card.

I used Fury of the Kraken in my Greyjoy TLV last summer, but that was pre-Asha restriction. I'd be fine with the Furies coming off.

Well. Second place in Stahleck was a Maester deck...

That was pre-Coldhands.

I think TMP + Tin Link should not be ever legal again. The conclave could leave the restricted list - especially because of Ygritte - but tin link has removed attachments from the game totally and the possibility to gain tin link and copper link that easy makes seassons decks so bad as well...

I think TMP + Tin Link should not be ever legal again. The conclave could leave the restricted list - especially because of Ygritte - but tin link has removed attachments from the game totally and the possibility to gain tin link and copper link that easy makes seassons decks so bad as well...

I disagree 100%. First, a lot of deck do play a few attachments. Second, the reason we don't see more is because attachments suck. They can't be played on setup, and they're fragile. It has nothing to do with Tin Link.

Except that Tin Link is something that helps make them so fragile...

And yeah, I'd love to get some Euro guest hosts and have had some offers. Scheduling us just a pain.

Once upon a time, there was a card that caused problematic interactions with otherwise OK plots, plot/agenda combos, and other stuff generally fine on its own. The attitude at that time on 2C1C was "if a card causes problematic interactions, perhaps the problem is not those other cards but THIS card. Let's just restrict/errata THIS rather than everything else."

That card was the Laughing Storm.

Nowadays, we have a card causing problematic interactions with hard-to-pay for yet powerful events, cards designed to reward risk balancing in card advantage with powerful effects, and built-in deckbuilding restrictions by way of the setup mechanic.

However, it seems that the podcast thinks that Knights of the Hollow Hill itself is OK but that some of the interactions with it could/should be tweaked. I'm just wondering what makes the difference behind the logic and the line of thinking in these two instances, or are they more different than it seems to me on the surface?

PS: just getting to the part of the cast where Darryl is talking about TLS! ha!

The Laughing Storm didn't create a new deck achtype, it was just a card with an effect that created issues.

If you restrict KotHH you are effectively killing a deck archtype, and that isn't good for the game. Restrict pieces of that puzzle to make the KotHH player have to make tough/creative choices to adapt.

Because of all this discussion that's been going on, I say let's restrict KotHH during the Store Championship season as a trial run to see what KotHH decks or players can come up with to overcome that issue. Then, using the results of Store Championships, reconsider this restriction if it caused more problems than it corrected.

I don't know, but we gotta come up with a compromise somewhere.

There are a lot of debates as to why stuff is on the Restricted List. I think some of the reasons people think some cards are on it are misconceptions. Threat from the East, to my understanding, was put on the RL because of that Stark TMP deck that emptied an opponents hand down to 1 card in the first round while also making them hit the draw cap in the same plot phase. As long as TftE and TMP remain on the RL, that combo is significantly harder to pull off.

I loved the discussion on Coldhands. But it seemed to me that Kyle was saying that it would cause problems with multiple cold hands that the game play might get confusing as to which character was taken out by which Coldhands.

The way we have solved this in the Chicago Meta is all cards removed by Coldhands go in a piles under Coldhands. That way when he is killed or discarded or Coldhandsed you know exactly which cards are brought back into play.

The Laughing Storm didn't create a new deck achtype, it was just a card with an effect that created issues.

If you restrict KotHH you are effectively killing a deck archtype, and that isn't good for the game. Restrict pieces of that puzzle to make the KotHH player have to make tough/creative choices to adapt.

See, this is where I disagree and why I think the restricted list is so elegant of a solution to cardpool problems. You DON'T kill an archetype; you create choices for the user.

I guess I don't see a difference from the Targ HH player's point of view if they restricted the agenda itself or Westeros Bleeds. I STILL will have to pick a restricted card. In the former, I have to let go of Hatchling's Feast or of the agenda, so obviously Feast has to go but I still have Bleeds. In the latter solution, I have to choose between Bleeds and Feast--so I can still have the exact same deck in both scenarios, but the major difference, to me, is that you don't kill the other archetypes which are trying to use influence out of non-hollow hill builds. If you restrict Bleeds or something like that, no Martell player is ever going to play it as their restricted. That means no experimenting with Doran's Favor, etc. and so on. Decks like Greg's Targ Black Sails Bleeds deck would die. Restricting the agenda does basically the same to Hollow Hill but more elegantly since it allows those other pieces to still be used by other decks. Yeah, you might kill Hatchling's Feast in Hollow Hill, but you might anyway by adding 88 cards to the list.

It just seemed to me back in the day that restricting TLS would have been easier than errata to TftE, a nice breakup to the TLS/Val combo, and would have allowed Baratheon some restricted choices. Remember, these discussions were going on before the big FAQ bomb that put 10,000 cards on the list. I do realize that Threat from the East was on mainly for a Maester combo, but the combo with TLS surely had something to do with it too. I almost for sure remember Kennon saying something on his podcast to the effect of "if the problems are interactions with this card, then isn't the card itself the problem?" I agreed with that sentiment towards TLS and I agree with that sentiment towards Hollow Hill.

That said, perhaps this is a bit of a derail and it's not even important the history of the TLS debate. It just seems that if we could either add one card to the list (KotHH) or 3-4-5 (Bleeds, Favorable, Rally Cry, Cities, or other solutions proffered by the community) why not just add one?

THAT said, it doesn't matter what I think. FFG will do what they want.

I'll come back with more later, but I suppose philosophically, the underlying difference is that I don't fundamentally believe that KotHH is a problem, though I acknowledge that others see it that way. So, I'm willing to look at some light ways to disincentivize (did I just make up that word?) trends that others have an issue with, but I don't believe KotHH to be the root of the problem at the moment.

As well, I think part of it does have to do with the scope of the problem. While I still believe that if surrounding interactions are causing issues, maybe it's the center piece card, I think there is a limit somewhere to that measurement. TLS caused awkward interaction with really, a finite number of pieces in pretty specific situations. As an example at the other end of the spectrum, take a look at all of the Martell cards on the restricted list. Were they really the problem, or was the centerpiece Martell house card what should have been restricted?

Ok, so I know some people who more or less jokingly believe that the Martell house card should be restricted, but I think it's still a fair example that there's some vague area where it moves beyond specific interactions to general themes.

I can see what you're saying--TLS' effect is different than that of KotHH, which was panned as awful when released and now has risen to OP on the back of other interactions. Nobody thought it was good until Greg showed us, and TLS was restricted before release(!). So, not exactly apples to apples, I grant.

But still, wouldn't you rather have one add to the list rather than 100?

Well, I would point out that most of my solution was to unrestrict other cards. I only suggested restricting 3, and only one of those was really for the KotHH implications.

KotHH is an interesting discussion. I'm not sure where I land.

At its most basic level, it's not far different from setting up a Kingsroad Fiefdom and a Lannisport Treasury. That's really not a setup that anyone's going to get hot and bothered about.

The major benefit is in the deck composition. Knowing you'll always have economy on setup means you don't need much more than a few reducers in your deck. Drawing gas all game long is really nice. This is even more pronounced since the houses that best leverage the agenda also have the best draw like effects.

The agenda could probably offset more by making setups better. I'm not sure if unrestricting the refugees is the best way to go, but it's worth consideration.

Personally, I'd lean toward restricting Westeros Bleeds. But that's a separate conversation.

Take the Conclave off the list !!

Take the Conclave off the list !!

Take the Conclave off the list !!

And put every other maester on it

IMO KotHH should not be restricted. It enables a completely different style of play. Otherwise you are 'essentially' playing a combo deck, I need 3 cards to WB, x2 influence producers + WB. That's no good.

I actually like the remove orphan idea. KotHH wasn't always so powerful and while orphans are OP no one chooses them as their restricted card.
I was most into this game when maesters conquered every tournament so I'm fine with leaving them where they are at.

I've never thought The Conclave belonged on the Restricted List. An errata to make it unique would make more sense and curb abuse of the card. I'd like to see that happen instead of it staying Restricted. Pentoshi Manor being unrestricted but errata'ed to be unique is also a very good idea.

Kings of Summer/Winter should come off--and be errata'ed to have the Season trait. Otherwise they're rarely going to get played. With the trait, they provide reasonable options for alternate deck builds, which I think would be good for the game.

I'd like to see TMP come off now that there are some solid counters that will be showing up in many, many decks. But without it on there along with Tin Link, attachments are once again too fragile for the risk. Maybe those counters are enough to balance out the problem, but I don't know.

I do like the idea of Negotiations being a disincentive to samey City plot cycles, but it needs to be errate'ed to 1-claim. As it, it's just OP.

I do think KotHH should be Restricted, though. It's gotten degenerate. If the new approach to the Restricted List is a sort of soft rotation, a season or so of it being Restricted would be good for the meta.

Taking the Furies (and the Castellan) off the list is an idea whose time has come.

I've never thought The Conclave belonged on the Restricted List. An errata to make it unique would make more sense and curb abuse of the card.

Its even in the name of the card. The Conclave. The. Conclave. As in, 1 Conclave...

As far as Castellan goes, that would be OK with me as long as Pentoshi at minimum became unique.

I'm still wondering about Fear of Winter. Absurdly good plot, no doubts there, but one used primarily by aggro decks and not control or rush. Would removing that not provide an appropriate buff there?

Agreed. I can't believe a card named THE Conclave isn't unique.

I don't know, FoW is a tough one. I recall running into control decks that would use it once they had the upper hand to ensure that the other player couldn't find a way to get back on top for a turn. And considering that it was also two claim, it often sealed the deal completely.

To be fair, Conclave is a collective singular noun. So, although it is singular, it represents a group of entities. The card might not represent every single person of the Conclave, rather the Conclave as an entity, the "idea" of the Conclave. In which case, non-unique makes sense; it is a force that should recur when dealing with Maesters. This is the same way that something like Northern Calvary Flank is a singular name, although a collective singular, and also non-unique.

I just wanted to make the point that the definite article "the" does not necessitate or even directly imply the idea of singularity or uniqueness.

A couple thoughts. Conclave and Pentoshi being unique have been suggested many times before. Both seem like good ways to curb the power level of those cards, but I think FFG is reluctant to change uniqueness. The only errata in that regard is for misprints.

I support removing Orphan from the restricted list. When it first appeared, I was surprised. Then, I realized how hard it screwed over black sails decks with only a handful of naval characters. I think it was added so people wouldn't be afraid to play the new, shiny agenda.

I'm surprised at the suggestion to put Aegon's Hill back on the restricted list. If there's a hill that ought to be restricted, it's the good one.

I could see FFG making Pentoshi Manor unique assuming Lannisport Brothel is a precedent to the kind of errata they'd be willing to make. That being said, I don't know if LB was a printing error or if it was just found to be too strong for it's cost as a non-unique location.

Do you think that adding a target play restriction to Pentoshi Manor might help keep it non-unique?

"Choose an attacking non-Ally character".

Speaking of Ally's, I've been thinking about how being an Ally is ******. I would like to see some cards that Ally's are protected from, or can help give them a boost to punish a little bit of the hate. Targ has some cards, like Recruitment for Ally love, but I can't think of any other off the top of my head. I'd like to see more that reinforce the Ally trait instead of despising it. They seem to be coming out with some Mercenary love at least, so that's a nice start for a trait that has a bunch of hate. :-)