2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 154

Haven't listened yet, but preemptively liking it because I was tempted to make this exact topic in the forums yesterday.

Haven't listened yet either, but seeing that you're talking about the Painted Table - that's a funny coincidence. Just this morning in the shower I was thinking to myself "Huh, the Painted Table - that might be a kinda underused card these days".

Actually, the Painted Table in question is the new segment we started awhile back about what we've actually been playing lately.

Might be worth looking at the card again though

hehe

I have to side with Will in the Burning Sands vs. Prince's Plans argument. Burning Sands is strong, no doubt, but without recursion it isn't the unstoppable monster some people try to make it out to be. While banning it ultimately wouldn't bother me, that's a hyperbolic reaction with little merit.

Glad to hear it, Joshaw. Making something repeatable is a big factor in NPE determination to me.

I wouldn't say little merit. The card is degenerative to the game. The player spends nothing to get it and they make a challenge disappear nullifying all reactions to that challenge. The cards that do things in a similar fashion have either a decent cost or have a limited effect i.e. the only game that matters and misinformation or red vengeance. Recurring it amplifies it ten fold I'm not saying that it's the end all be all but I wouldn't miss it if we got rid of it.

Look at this cool Ned Stark

Aha! But the copy in play still makes it back to your deck!

Possibly the one situation in which Stalwart is desirable. Too bad it's not on more cards you're desperate to keep on the board, like Winter Catelyn (that would be obnoxious, though) or card draw stuff...

So I will address the Elephant in the room.
Blade Runner / Do androids dream of electric sheep is a classic..No.. it is more than a classic a classic+ with ice cream on top. It is a defining moment in cinematic history for Sci-Fi films.
Yes we all heard you slop it last week, but out of the goodness of our hearts gave you a pass because your podcast is pretty sweet.
However bringing it up again is painful, regretable, deplorable, unfathomable, improbable, irrisponsible, outrageous, egregious, preposterous, totally inappropriate, lewd, lascivious, salacious and outrageous !
Shame on you and not just regular shame, the kind of shame where you should be expecting a phone call from your mother wondering where she went wrong !
We will speak no more on this subject as we do not want to tarnish the good name of the 2C1C any more than you arleady have.
May god have mercy on your souls !
Now back to the cardboard crack talk please !

Unnecessarily in-depth thoughts and feedback time!

A Game of Thrones does have a blue shell in it - Rally Cry. Cards at Command generally is like Mario Kart's "rubber band" AI, come to think.

I haven't finished listening yet, but so far I've found myself predominantly agreeing with Darryl.

Darryl
On City of Sin I'm somewhere in between you. I think A City Besieged is the more powerful effect, but I think City of Sin is the more NPE one. Targetted removal just doesn't seem as NPE to me as mass targeted soft control, for some reason. I do think it's a fair card though, and I wouldn't put it (or any City) in my top 10.

Fear of Winter is one of the poster children for NPE. I'm a big fan of the card, but it's the ultimate "it doesn't matter what you do" card in the game. I'm inclined to disagree with Kyle's point about it being the board state that makes the NPE, because no matter when you play this card it'll probably be NPE for somebody, even if it's yourself. As you say, "cannot" is one of the most NPE words in the game, and this card "cannot"s better than any other!

One thing worth noting about Fear: it's an amazing counter to a lot of the NPE events, to the point where it almost doesn't feel NPE to me because it stops other NPE cards (that I hope you guys will come to later on). It may not be the NPE we deserve, but it's the NPE we need right now.

Castellan of the Rock is an interesting one - I think it's a powerful effect, but I wouldn't call it NPE compared to something like Lannisport Brothel. I do think kneel's NPE-ness does often get over looked though.

Pentoshi, I'm not sure. I mean, I can see it, but I don't think it's NPE so much as it's just an efficient and powerful control effect. It only really gets NPE when there are multiple out at once.

Agreed on Bear Island. It's a perfectly fair and balanced card as you describe, but repeatable hard control is about as NPE as it gets.

Ghaston Grey likewise is pretty NPE, but for me it's only NPE if you get it in a 'lockdown' situation where you just bounce all your opponent's characters each round and they can make no headway. That feeling of "well what am I meant to DO?" isn't a pleasant one.

Tin Link's a great shout and one I completely forgot about. Speaks for itself.

Kyle
River Blockade seems a fair enough shout. It's not a typical NPE card in my mind, but you justified it well.

Catelyn's a great example. She's not necessarily that great (mainly because of the opportunity cost), but she's incredibly NPE in the right circumstance. I do hope to see Shadows and Spiders later on though, since it does the reverse in many ways .

The Laughing Storm and Catelyn back-to-back made me laugh, so thank you Daryl for coughing "Lannister Player!" I disagree with TLS completely. For me, a negative play experience stops you from doing something. TLS doesn't stop you from making any intrigue challenges and triggering all the other effects you need from it, it just denies you claim. Is having no power on your house an NPE because it denies you claim from power challenges? A repeatable save, is that NPE? Not in my eyes. I think combos WITH TLS like the Threat from the East and so on can be NPE, but I don't think TLS is NPE by himself.

Cat o' the Canals was a weird one, and I really, really don't see it. She's NPE for you because she stops you making it more NPE for your opponent? I think the only part of her you could consider NPE would be her immunity to opponent's plot effects, because there's nothing like the look on someone's face when you keep her around after Valar. But for something to do be NPE, for me it actually has to do something.

Lethal Counterattack made me laugh because it's so true. Bringing up Lethal Counterattack stories is like the closest this game gets to observational comedy.

Disagree on Rhaenys's Hill by itself. I think it only gets truly NPE when its brought back each round as we've seen lately. As a one-turn effect it's powerful, but it's not stopping me doing anything, it's just a powerful effect.

The Viper's Rage can die in a fire. It's my Lethal Counterattack, I never see it until I win by 4 or more ;_;.

will
Naval Escort seems to be attacking the wrong card. That card has existed for years without being particularly NPE. What makes it NPE isn't the threat of losing a challenge, it's the threat of what that entails - and that's all down to The Old Way. Naval Escort may be a key card in an Old Way deck, but ultimately it's not NPE with the agenda, whereas I think the agenda can be NPE without the Escort.

The Art of Seduction is an interesting one, but I can see how it fits the bill. My argument against it being NPE is that it's not stopping you having a plot, just revealing a new one. Very few decks rely heavily on the revealing of new plots to be able to play their game - even City and River decks it just slows them down rather than stopping them playing. It's more NPE for Rivers but only because their plots give them card advantage so you're denying them cards by denying them plots. I would say the Valar/Art combo is NPE, but I think on balance I disagree about the entire card being NPE.

I agree wholeheartedly with Incinerate. Any card that makes you regret bothering to play a character strikes me as NPE. The ease with which you can trigger it (as you say, the influence cost is almost a benefit since it's so easy to meet and makes Paper Shield worthless against it), combined with the lack of restriction on targets (tired of not being able to use Flame-Kissed, King's Landing Assassin or Hatchling's Feast on your opponent's attachment-laden character? No problem!) makes this a huge NPE for me.

Like Naval Escort, picking on Redwyne Straits seems weird. How is it NPE for someone to get 4 gold? Is All the Gold in Casterly Rock NPE? Is Plunder NPE? Finding it makes KotHH more efficient on turn one doesn't seem remotely NPE to me, it's just... a thing that happens.

Aegon's Hill I completely agree with - see Bear Island before, only Aegon's Hill is more over-powered.

The Prince's Plans is NPE because... you can bring back other, far more NPE cards? Nothing about the effect "take 4 cards from your discard pile" screams NPE to me. It's only what you return. If you were returning Dornish Paramour, Summer Sea, Dornish Fiefdoms and Iron Mines, say, would that be NPE? Burning is NPE, not the card that lets you play Burning again. Strong disagree here.

On a similar note I don't think Crossing the Mummer's Ford is NPE. Gaining cards isn't NPE, it's just efficient. Is Golden Tooth Mines NPE? Tommen Baratheon? Longship Iron Victory? Guard at Riverrun? This is the one that makes me think we maybe just have different definitions of what NPE means. Could you clarify what you mean it to actually be?

My own list, in the order they came to me:
- A House Divided
- Burning on the Sand (and Misinformation and whatnot)
- He Calls it Thinking
- Incinerate
- Fear of Winter
- The Old Way
- Questioned Claim
- Rally Cry
- Shadows and Spiders
- Aegon's Hill


Finally I just want to say again, thanks for doing this 'cast. I might be nitpicking over the specifics, but rest assured it's only out of love .

Did you all choose a house before the podcast or was it just Kyle?

After each NPE card was discussed and it was decided it ruined enjoyment for the opponent, I kept thinking, "I've got to work that into my deck!"

Am I a bad person?

Disagree on Burning. Recursion makes it stronger, but by itself, it's no worse than winter Catelyn or TLS by shutting off the effects of a challenge. I think it should say "Response: When you would lose a challenge as the defender, cancel the claim. That winner may not trigger effects for winning the challenge." Then Martell still gets the benefits of losing like vengeful.

If any card should be outright banned it's the one Kyle rightly noted should never have been printed: Tin Link. With it gone, TMP could come off of the Restricted List (there are more answers to Chained-up Maesters now). It's effectively banned now, so it wouldn't really change much.

That's the only one, though.

I think TMP was added to the RL primarily to help tame the combo in round 1 that would reduce an opponents hand down to 1 card AFTER draw capping during the plot phase.

Pentoshi doesn't stop Voltron Beyond the Narrow Sea Stannis, because he's immune to locations......

BTW, I know for a fact you had one listener give you grief about your Blade Runner philistinism....

I think TMP was added to the RL primarily to help tame the combo in round 1 that would reduce an opponents hand down to 1 card AFTER draw capping during the plot phase.

I am pretty sure that the Path was on the list and then Threat from the East was added to nerf that combo, though I could be wrong.

I agree that the path could come off at this point. There are more options for decks at these days and with the errata and no tin link I think it could be ok now. Not to mention that the conclave would have to stay on there.

Oh boy, so much to respond too. Thanks for all of the feedback, guys. My apologies if I miss something, especially since JCWamma laid such a large and detailed post on us.

@Vszeus- Great post!

@JCWama- (Mainly on the points toward me): Yeah, the definition of NPE and the potentially subjective nature of it is probably something that we should have spent a little more time addressing. While something like Art of Seduction can cause a Negative Play Experience, that doesn't necessarily mean that the card is broken or overpowered, which I happen to not feel about that particular card, or several others that we discussed on the show.

Similarly, Redwyne Straits is one that I feel causes some NPE situations for players (I've heard a lot of complaints) but isn't necessarily a problem card in the context of the metagame as a whole. Still, I do feel a bit wonky about it's ability to mitigate part of the KotHH drawback so directly and easily.

I stand by Plans being what actually causes the majority of the NPE feeling. Like I mentioned to Darryl on the show, if it was a Lannister card instead and you were returning Walk of Shame, You Killed the Wrong Dwarf, A House Divided, and Harry the Riverlands, wouldn't it feel just as brutal to the opponent to just keep staring those down? Are those events ones that you would call NPEs or overpowered/broken on their own?

Sure, most of the cards that you mentioned in the draw category aren't ones that I would consider overpowered or personally consider to be NPEs but over the years in the game I have heard an awful lot of variations on "Nerf Martell because they draw too many cards!" or "God, I hate playing against Lannister because they draw so much that nothing I do ever matters." At a couple points in the game, I even recall GTM being one of the prime cards mentioned as causing that ill will. So, to clarify, NPE to me does not equal overpowered or broken. It's simply something that causes a very negative reaction in the opponent's enjoyment of the game. Ask Darryl about him stripping my hand 3 times a game over the weekend and how I just kept topping right off with Crossing and River copies. I think he felt it as pretty NPE at the time.

@Taider- Nope, Darryl and I didn't. Did we come across as having a particular slant? I tried to shuffle mine around not to, but I'm curious how it sounds to listeners.

@14Shirt- Nope. No you aren't at all.

@Danigral- I don't think Burning is that bad either.

@Amuk- You know, I think I would be ok with just tossing Tin Link as well. Though you're right, no one plays it now anyway.

@Bomb & OKTarg- I don't recall which order they went on, but errata now keeps that combo from playing out, so why not drop Threat from the restricted list now?

I was just giving Kyle a hard time. He was the only one that sounded as if he made his list for a specific house.

@JCWama- (Mainly on the points toward me): Yeah, the definition of NPE and the potentially subjective nature of it is probably something that we should have spent a little more time addressing. While something like Art of Seduction can cause a Negative Play Experience, that doesn't necessarily mean that the card is broken or overpowered, which I happen to not feel about that particular card, or several others that we discussed on the show.

Similarly, Redwyne Straits is one that I feel causes some NPE situations for players (I've heard a lot of complaints) but isn't necessarily a problem card in the context of the metagame as a whole. Still, I do feel a bit wonky about it's ability to mitigate part of the KotHH drawback so directly and easily.

I stand by Plans being what actually causes the majority of the NPE feeling. Like I mentioned to Darryl on the show, if it was a Lannister card instead and you were returning Walk of Shame, You Killed the Wrong Dwarf, A House Divided, and Harry the Riverlands, wouldn't it feel just as brutal to the opponent to just keep staring those down? Are those events ones that you would call NPEs or overpowered/broken on their own?

Sure, most of the cards that you mentioned in the draw category aren't ones that I would consider overpowered or personally consider to be NPEs but over the years in the game I have heard an awful lot of variations on "Nerf Martell because they draw too many cards!" or "God, I hate playing against Lannister because they draw so much that nothing I do ever matters." At a couple points in the game, I even recall GTM being one of the prime cards mentioned as causing that ill will. So, to clarify, NPE to me does not equal overpowered or broken. It's simply something that causes a very negative reaction in the opponent's enjoyment of the game. Ask Darryl about him stripping my hand 3 times a game over the weekend and how I just kept topping right off with Crossing and River copies. I think he felt it as pretty NPE at the time.

That's all fair, and thanks for responding! I think most of them will have to be "agree to disagree", which is fine. I would say that I do think that those Lanni cards you mentioned potentially recurring would all be NPE, though! AHD is, as I've said in the past, tied with Burning on the Sands for being my least favourite card in the entire game. And challenge removal/kneel both are pretty NPE too, albeit not as bad as many others mentioned. Again if this hypothetical Lanni equivalent was returning other typical Lannister cards (I'm You Writ Small, a Sea, maybe A Lannister Pays His Debts, etc.), it wouldn't be so bad. It's the cards that are returned that I believe are the problem. And that's not to say The Prince's Plans isn't uber-powerful, I think it should be restricted (for many reasons, including bias against cards I'm fed up seeing which is almost an NPE in-and-of-itself), I just don't think it's NPE in the traditional sense. But like I said, agree to disagree!

Just got a chance to listen... I must say the Redwyne Straits pick was the only shocker to me, and I basically consider any game I face against that an auto-win. The much bigger first turn issue for KotHH is the card disadvantage, not the gold. You are at only a 3 gold disadvantage first turn because of the +2 you get from your agenda. If a KotHH player wastes a plot slot on Straits I am a happy camper no matter what I am running, and if they pour out a bunch of cards first turn with their 10 gold there hand is severely depleted. Also, speaking as someone who loves to play KotHH, its a rough plot to have to play mid-late game.

I will also say Burning being so bad is 1000% Plans fault. My vote is still restrict Plans, unrestrict Cyvasse, move on.

No problem, JC. I like to interact with the listeners. My gold with any episode (and this list in particular) was to generate discussion, so I'm glad that it did so!
Do you think those cards are all NPE on their own or just once they're recurred though? I was trying (though perhaps poorly) to make the argument that the recursion is what would put them over the top.

Haha, I'm surprised that Straits was the only shocker, Awritt. I tried to be a bit more controversial than that.

I do think recursion makes them more NPE just because one of their downsides is meant to be their one-use factor and if you remove that they become stronger. But for me the concept of recursion isn't NPE in-and-of-itself. I don't hear many people claiming the likes of Street Waif, The Golden Company or Dale Seaworth to be NPE, for instance. Mel's Scheme and The Prince's Plans seem to be the only ones, and I think that's in large part due to the cards they return, namely the most powerful ones for each house (typically strong characters in Bara and nasty events in Martell). But for me the onus will always be on the cards being recurred, not the recursive effect itself.

I guess maybe the best way to put it would be that the Plans is an 'enabler' for more NPE experiences, but not actually NPE itself?