2 Champs and a Chump- Episode 155

Can't wait to hear this!

Good show so far. I'm going off on a tangent here, so feel free to disregard it if I'm too off-topic. Maybe ya'll could address it in a future podcast.

I'd like to see Thrones rebooted after the current cycle for three reasons:

1. FFG can start over and get the rules & templating correct. There are so many cards and situations that drive me crazy and make teaching the game more difficult than it should be.
2. I might be able to convince some friends to play if the initial investment is $50 to $100 instead of $800
3. The show is incredibly popular right now, and the window to capitalize on it is closing. Even if many current players quit after a reboot, I think they would quickly be replaced and then some.

As a guest rules-lawyer, I agree - to some extent. I'd love to see a re-templating. But I think the logistics are much harder than you give them credit for.

1. These *will* accumulate anyway, given enough time, even after a reboot and new templating pass. Other games can avoid this by cycling out cards with typos/poor templating (so the # of them doesn't keep rising), but the current LCG format can/will not.

2. While I agree, I think you're exaggerating in saying the barrier of entry is that big a deal since the game has clearly been growing steadily despite the increasing card pool. Sure, it might be growing faster, but I know just as many people chosing not to buy into SW because they feel the card pool isn't deep enough as chosing not to buy into AGOT because the card pool is too big. The initial investment to get into the game is not 800. Not only can buy a whole collection on ebay, a good starting point (2 cores and a deluxe, or something) really isn't that bad. How many people here bought every card in existence on their first day? I think they should definitely re-do a core set to make a more approachable starting point, though.

3. There's some truth to that, but knowing a. how many players were lost in the CCG to LCG transition and how long its taken to recover, and b. that FFG has a much better idea of their sales etc, I'm going to have to assume they're making the right decision financially.


My templating 'pass' of choice would involve a new core set with a new templating pass that includes rulings on how to interpret old cards with the new templating. Passives would become forced reactions, save/cancels would become Interrupts, etc. I'd then gradually release deluxe boxes for each previous cycle with the new templating, knowing development costs (art, design) would be fairly low. I'd also probably ensure that new product had a code to 'unlock' it online for play through an FFG online play system.

Great episode! Fun to hear from the Finns, of whom I am a fanboy.

I do, however, want to disagree/explore a comment made regarding the "Janos Ruling." As I understand it, the ruling codifies that one cannot trigger an effect if NOTHING is expected to happen, not if LESS THAN EVERYTHING is expected to happen. The example given in the episode is the Red Warlock. Why (even given the ruling) can you not trigger the Warlock to search (which is something) even if the search fails (which is less than everything)? I would rule the card as being able to be triggered to search even if the player expects it to fail. From a game rules point of view, I don't see how it can be otherwise. The same would go for At the Gates....can I play this plot when my deck is empty? Surely so, even though I won't successfully get my "when revealed," right?

Compare to Aegon's Hill--if I "know" that my opponent has no characters (from confession in draw phase, say) would I not be able to trigger the Hill to look at the hand of my opponent? I'm not sure why I would want to do to that, but it's just an example of an incomplete effect that I think I could still trigger.

Perhaps a better comparison is Frozen Outpost. It's long been known that I can use this with a non-kneeling defender (or already standing defender) such as Ser Rodrik Cassel to give the STR boost without the stand....this actually is NOT overturned by the Janos ruling but seems more similar to the Red Warlock unsuccessful search situation.

Great information as always! Perhaps I am one of the thirty who actually loves the rules, but I need all the help I can to catch up to @SlothGodfather as Tulsa Rules Junkie Extraordinaire

Your understanding of Frozen outpost and the limitations of the Janos Slynt ruling are correct. However, At the Gates doesn't really matter, since its not a triggered effect (and therefore isn't affected by the Janos Slynt ruling). Nor does Aegon's Hill, it explicitly is triggered (and knelt) to look at an opponent's hand, after which you may (etc).

That said, the Red Warlock is a greyer area. As the text allows you to trigger the response to "Search your deck FOR" rather than "Search your deck, then" , it's a question of whether you can 'fail' at a search. In english, you can fail at finding but it's hard to fail at searching. In Thrones terminology, I think you can fail to search....

Care to send the question to Damon?

Sure, I'll send it in. It just seems like an unreasonable rules burden to require complete deck knowledge PRIOR to the triggering of the effect.

On the other hand, Thrones is built upon unreasonable rules burdens, so there we go.

Guys, don't over-think the Janos Slynt ruling and apply it to triggering effects on unknown sets.

The effect is to search your deck for something. SEARCHING YOUR DECK is part of the effect. Searching through the deck is going through an unknown set entities and if you find something that fits the criteria, then you do what the search effect says you need to do with it.

Just because you know or remember that you won't find anything that meets the condition of the search effect doesn't mean you cannot trigger it. Searching the deck is part of the effect and doing something to the found card is another part of the effect.

Great episode! Fun to hear from the Finns, of whom I am a fanboy.

Hopefully we managed to avoid completely butchering the language while travelling across the language barrier... Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence! Also, a big thanks for Kennon for having us on the show.

As Istaril mentions, the whole puzzle with Red Warlock (who is indeed in the grey area of the Janos ruling) arises from the exact wording, in combo with the old "must find if can be found" ruling. This one could easily swing either way, in the end.

I totally agree with changing the templating from Save/Cancel Responses to "Interrupt" or separate them into Save and Interrupt types of triggered effects.

I'd also like templating to separate Constant effects with Passive effects with a clear label just so there is an identifiable distinction on the card for all purposes. I am finding more and more players confuse the two types of effects because it's not always clearly identifiable for everyone.

Thanks for a very interesting episode. Glad to see a rules-centric episode come out, and great to listen to my friends and colleagues on the podcast.

I think there is something to be discussed regarding restarting the game. Similar to earlier posts, my changes would be:

1) Unique Character Versioning (ala Cthulhu)
2) Textbox templating
3) Formats or a reset. Formats support old gamers while a Type-2 styled format of the last 2 cycles only (or something) is a legitimate way to get new players in the game. I know many gamers who are just uninterested in getting into the game knowing there is such an investment in cards. Combine that with having to learn 2000 cards even if you don't own them in order to play.
4) Rebalance the houses. Seems to me like nearly every house starts with the same 30 cards, 20 more are pretty easy to guess, and 10 are variations to complement an Agenda.

This episode was great! I thought it was awesome that Alex made a guest appearance. Also, it would be awesome if there was a regular Quill and Tankard segment on the cast. Maybe once every other month or so. Great job gentlemen.

Don't know about any of you guys, but I personally find some of the crazy/complicated rulings quite fun. If we didn't have to meet here and discuss how certain cards and combos function, what would we actually talk about?!

Excellent episode. The three guest hosts were superb and provided great insight, I don't think they critiqued FFG without providing a possible solution. I found myself agreeing with almost everything they said. One thing I really do think FFG needs to sort is TEMPLATING, it is embarrassing when there are spelling mistakes and when different wording is used for the same thing... introduction of character agendas I'm looking at you.

Similar to earlier posts, my changes would be:

1) Unique Character Versioning (ala Cthulhu)

As someone with no Cthulhu background, I have no idea what that entails. Care to elaborate?

Oh, it's a handy feature, Istaril. In Cthulhu, all the uniques have a name and unique symbol like we're used to, but directly underneath have a subtitle in italics. They don't matter for rules, but are really handy for flavor and easier to keep track of what's which without remembering the chapter pack name and/or number.
So, for example we could have: (and apologies, no italics on my phone)

*Arya Stark
/Arry/

*Arya Stark
/Cat of the Canals

*Tywin Lannister
/Pragmatic Patriarch

*Tywin Lannister
/Hand of the King


I think it would be awesome, but I think you can see how it would potentially set up spoilers with some characters like Young Griff.

I think it would be awesome, but I think you can see how it would potentially set up spoilers with some characters like Young Griff.

Good thing Aegon doesn't do anything like that, eh?

Or Cat of the Canals.

But then, there are at least 2 characters I can think of that actually don't.

Good thing Aegon doesn't do anything like that, eh?

Are you saying he's not Aegon the Conqueror like I thought?????

Are you saying he's not Aegon the Conqueror like I thought?????

No, he's not, silly. He's Aegon Smith, a delivery man from Pocatello, Idaho. When he got married to Betsy Targaryen, a short order cook from Idaho Falls, he took her last name because he owed some money to a small time crook called Young Griff. That discard effect represents Young Griff being out his dough on account of that clever move. Very nedly, really.

That, ser, was a brilliant post. I applaud you.

I really don't think it's within FFG's best interest to re-invent the game to do a soft reboot like from CCG to LCG.

I think the best way to go forth would be the next cycle of reprints that addresses and meets player concern with extreme scrutiny. The last cycle of reprints had a contained the hefty and extremely long-winded Jaqen, but it also was changed. So this gives me hope that FFG can go about all the cards that've already been errata'd and change the print on the card to match what they expect from it.

That's really their best opportunity because old players can just go back to the FAQ and remember that there have been erratas. Then new players, that are getting into the game, can see the entire text for the card, with every expected change from the FAQ, that way there's no need to go back and forth. Fixing problem cards that shouldn't need a textbox the size of the entire card could be better succinctly worded as well. The sweep over the cards, with someone as a quality control emphasis would need to be implemented to make sure mis-spellings and grammatical errors don't occur. So basically, someone with an english degree.

Can someone please state in plain english exactly what "The Janos Ruling" is??? People keep talking about it but some of us are in the dark.

(edit)
Ah, it came up on BTW's FAQ episode; you can't trigger THTW Janos' response if you're draw capped.