Jump to content

Welcome to Card Game DB
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

Search Articles

- - - - -

Be Prepared - Playtesting

Small Council Nate

With both worlds and Stahleck quickly approaching I thought I would adapt an article that was originally written by Andrew Ornatov for use in Legend of the five rings and apply it to game of thrones.

1. Goldfishing - The term itself comes from the concept of of playing against a goldfish, which is the same as playing against no opponent (unless you have the goldfish from american dad). Goldfishing should be the first thing that one does to a potential tournament deck simply repeating the first 2-3 turns of a deck, without accounting for opponents disruptions, to see if things like the economy works, if the spread of your hand ( characters, attachments, events, locations) is working and these sort of things.

-Do not shuffle your deck after each gold fish draw and keep going through your deck until it is depleted. This gives you a much better representation of how your deck will function in a tournament (its possible to hit that 6/7 card set up a couple of times in a row if you re-shuffle), this will also give you a better approximation of how often you will see your duplicates of your uniques during a tournament.

- Keep track how often you are either short on gold/economy or have spare gold as this will help to trim/expand your resource curve to the deck.

- Keep in mind different types of deck you may play against, can you weather a rush deck, will choke have your economy go from tight to non-existent.

- Keep in mind traits/crests that your cards require and keep track of how many times you were unable to use effects/use cards due to this. These cards may be powerful, amazing even but if your unable to use them more often than not they become dead weight in games.

- Always remember goldfishing is not an exact science but more an initial assessment of whether or not the deck is worthy of getting some actual games with.

2. The Gauntlet - The gauntlet is a is a collection of playtest decks which are fairly well tuned STANDARD decks. Its pointless testing against your friends Stark Kotth Deck or other crazy ideas as you need to get a feel of how your deck will perform against tried and tested decks, you may feel good about winning but will feel equally bad when Stark standard MDK wipes the floor with you.

These rules apply when playing against gauntlet decks

- Gauntlet decks never get resource screwed, character screwed, event screwed anything screwed. In non Kotth decks they are allowed to mulligan 5 or 6 times to get a good set up (or go as far as allowing them to pick their set up form their deck). if they need a particular character/location/attachment to make the deck work they may at any time in the the game search the deck put it to one side and draw it whenever they would be able to draw card ( framework or through actions). This again represents reasonable draws from gauntlet decks.
The gauntlet deck gets to choose its plot from out of play before plots are revealed

- Gauntlet decks get to take back mistakes, your deck does not.

- The gauntlet deck should have 3 decks minimum one each of control, rush and aggro.

3. Deciding which cards to put in/ take out - The point of play testing is not to fully design a deck, the majority of of design happens in ones head and during goldfishing. The point of play testing is turning a deck that goes 3-3 and misses the cut into a 4-2 that makes the top cut (I'm generalising here but you get the idea)

- When play testing always think "is there a card that better serve me here and if so what is it"

- If you find yourself unable to decide between two cards for a slot, write on a piece of paper the other card pop it in the card sleeve and take note (usually keep a small set of ticks) how many times the other card would have served you better vs the sleeved card during play testing, whichever has the most ticks gets the spot.

- If you're playing ANY meta cards, think long and hard about cards that would do the approximate same thing against decks your meta-ing against , but would be also useful against other decks. Meta is a necessary evil but at times can be avoided by clever card choices.

- Look at every card in your deck and ask yourself " Against commonly played decks am I ever unhappy about drawing this card". If a card is not useful against common decks there's bound to be something better.

4. Getting better - Play testing is ultimately useless if you get nothing from it. here are some ways to to make lessons learned during play testing stick.

- Get a D6. Start every game with the D6 which starts at 1 at the beginning of each game and goes up by one for each misplay and when the die hits 6 you give your play testing buddy a pre-determined amount of money and re-set the die. You have to be honest with this method or it will not work. Once you stop making 5 mistakes per game don'r reset the dice between games, the score is carried over into the next game.The amount of money should not have you re-mortgaging the house but should not be trivial either, each 6 on the die should sting.

- A more "Hardcore" method on the above and one I would highly recommend is when attending local tournaments bring the D6 with you and does not reset between games.If it ever hits 6 you immediately concede the game you are playing (but carry on playing) and reset the dice. Again this requires honesty or it will not work.

- Whenever there's a question about what you should do, talk to your play testing buddy. Tell him what you think the correct play is, then show him your hand ( you don't get to see his). see what he thinks, discuss what the play should be, and what each variant would lead to. if your play testing buddy convinces you your original idea was wrong turn the die up one and smile.

This is not an exhaustive list of play testing but If it at least helps one person improve their game I'll be thrilled.

- Nate
  • scwont, Hraklea, zoltan and 1 other like this


22 Comments

Awesome suggestion about a piece of paper to tally the usefulness of a card you don't know if you wanna keep in the deck.
One time instead of the d6 method we used the slap in the face method :) Seriously, forgetting abour Greatjohn Umber's ability hurts. Phisically. Never forget it ;)
    • Ratatoskr, snagga, SirDragonBane and 8 others like this
Wow. Hungarians are tougher than other people... ;)
+10 points to whoever posts some "gauntlet" decks...
    • IstvanIII likes this
Photo
accountdeleted
Nov 04 2013 11:09 AM
Gauntlet testing is kinda weird. If I play a serious deck as gauntlet deck, there's absolutely no way I'm gonna lose. Losing deliberately does not equal playtesting though, or are gauntlet games supposed to be some sort of survival horror mod for agot?
\

Gauntlet testing is kinda weird. If I play a serious deck as gauntlet deck, there's absolutely no way I'm gonna lose. Losing deliberately does not equal playtesting though, or are gauntlet games supposed to be some sort of survival horror mod for agot?


I'm pretty sure that YOU are supposed to play your deck against the Gauntlet deck and see how you do. Yes, the Gauntlet deck should win, but you want perfect your deck and get better with it. At some point, maybe you can play the Gauntlet decks close or even beat it. How much better will you do then against a normal deck?

It's similar to playing 4v5 during basketball practice. Same concept.
You do not have to win in test games. The question is how to act in a specific situation. So you even do not have to finish these games if it does not help to enhance your deck expertise.
Photo
accountdeleted
Nov 04 2013 01:34 PM

It's similar to playing 4v5 during basketball practice. Same concept.


Except not.

If you play basketball 4v5, you increase your stamina and learn to deal with disadvantages. But playing against a decent deck in gauntlet mode is pointless because, as opposed to the basketball exercise, you have no way to overcome this obstacle. I already know how to play when I'm behind, so what's the point?

A better approach is to play a certain amount of standard games, determine your win percentage and analyze your deck afterwards. Then, make well-founded changes and see how they affect your win percentage.

If you play basketball 4v5, you increase your stamina and learn to deal with disadvantages... I already know how to play when I'm behind, so what's the point?


The first part of your question answers the second. You need to learn to deal with disadvantages. It's one thing to build a deck that whoops up on your local meta (and I'm looking at you, beknirvana and clique84 :lol: ) but at a major tournament, you will run into people who are better than you. You will run into decks that are stronger than you anticipated, and probably built better than yours, and sometimes, who are just plain luckier than you that game. If you want to simulate that experience, you can't just play against net-decked archetypes. You have to create that power-play kind of situation.

It's all well and good to boast that you already know how to play when you're behind, but the knee-jerk response is, well gee, goody for you, but the rest of us want all the practice we can get.
    • mdc273 likes this
A lot of times you can envision the goodness of a deck just from analyzing it and using your deck building criteria for resources and balance. However, sometimes you really can't tell how impacting certain cards are until you actually play with them in multiple situations. This is true even when you are playing from behind or at a disadvantage.

I might not be that credible because I don't have a lot of competitive deck building and tournament experience though.
Photo
RedSquadronK
Nov 04 2013 03:42 PM
I do a lot of fishbowling and it definitely helps give a feel for the deck and know what it's all about.
Once I get into "Guantlet" testing I think it's best to play a bunch of just standard games against standard decks: hopefully your new super-deck should win.
THEN you give the Guantlet decks perfect setups and say "well I know I can win if we get an equal draw, but what if they get a perfect draw?"

Overall great article! Wish it had been earlier than a few days before Worlds... :P
    • SirDragonBane, Nate and Jensen22 like this

+10 points to whoever posts some "gauntlet" decks...


Make that +20!

I do a lot of fishbowling and it definitely helps give a feel for the deck and know what it's all about.
Once I get into "Guantlet" testing I think it's best to play a bunch of just standard games against standard decks: hopefully your new super-deck should win.
THEN you give the Guantlet decks perfect setups and say "well I know I can win if we get an equal draw, but what if they get a perfect draw?"

Overall great article! Wish it had been earlier than a few days before Worlds... :P


I mean I understand the purpose of this article and all, but we should all agree that Yes testing is good but once we step into the "what if" zone, it kinda gets pointless right?

What if my opponent draws better?
What if i blinked the wrong moment and missed something?
What if i didn't sleep well yesterday?
What if i fart and the world explodes!

It's a chance based card game, we do our best to improve our odds of winning, but we will never be able to 100% control them.

This isn't chess, almost anyone can beat anyone if the stars align.

I mean I understand the purpose of this article and all, but we should all agree that Yes testing is good but once we step into the "what if" zone, it kinda gets pointless right?

What if my opponent draws better?
What if i blinked the wrong moment and missed something?
What if i didn't sleep well yesterday?
What if i fart and the world explodes!

It's a chance based card game, we do our best to improve our odds of winning, but we will never be able to 100% control them.

This isn't chess, almost anyone can beat anyone if the stars align.


I think several players would disagree with this post. If everyone had the same exact deck, then perhaps I'd be more apt to agree with this statement.

In my opinion chance is far from the basis of this game. It definitely exists but is far from the basis. Having a good sense for the meta, adaptation, deck building, playing smart, etc are all parts of the basis of the game. Sure, you are trying to increase the odds of drawing cards that help lead you to a win. However, if you have a deck where what you draw doesn't help you get to that point then the element of chance has little to do with it and you probably need to review the contents of your deck a little more and try again.
I agree with you and I will rephrase what I said because I meant something else.
The game is partially based on chance, which in my opinion adds a "wild factor" that cannot be 100% controlled, like any game that's affected even by a little by luck.
I think the point is that you try to control everything you possibly can though. There will always be a touch of luck, especially in a near mirror match between 2 players of similar skill level. But in all likelihood the better prepared you are, the less of a factor luck becomes, and even if some extreme luck hits a game one way or another you will be better positioned to deal with it.
Also let us not forget how the Great Jean Claude Van Dame was being prepared by his master. Just add some good old fiery water to the claim and train your concentration. If you can play without mistakes while you can hardly see that means kind of a mastery ...
    • Lampros likes this
Yesterday i was playing some tournament testing. Do you know what happens if you do a power challenge with a maester with a rusted sword, and the opponent has a Grotesquerie ?:) (it hurts)
    • SirDragonBane likes this

Gauntlet testing is kinda weird. If I play a serious deck as gauntlet deck, there's absolutely no way I'm gonna lose. Losing deliberately does not equal playtesting though, or are gauntlet games supposed to be some sort of survival horror mod for agot?


Umm.. what's a gauntlet deck lol?
It is explained in the article...

Yesterday i was playing some tournament testing. Do you know what happens if you do a power challenge with a maester with a rusted sword, and the opponent has a Grotesquerie ? :) (it hurts)


Maester's STR doesn't count because he has a military icon. Seems pretty clear cut to me!
Yes and you get to be slapped for forgetting it :D (but never forget going on ... )
    • JCWamma likes this