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Beheading Ned - Winter is Coming
Oct 12 2012 05:05 AM |
OKTarg
in Game of Thrones
Small Council Beheading Ned OkTarg
Welcome to the latest installment of Beheading Ned, the Small Council article devoted to the Nedly side of the game. As such, you should be warned that all manners of the story behind the LCG, whether from books, movies, or other lore, are all fair game to be discussed. This week, we will be taking a look at the Lords of Winterfell, House Stark.SPOILERS BELOW!
Each of the Great Houses is personified by its Lord, and House Stark is no different. Eddard Stark (Core) is Lord of Winterfell at the time of the Song of Ice and Fire, and he is perhaps one of the best in Westeros. Beloved by his bannermen, Eddard’s attention to duty, honor, and principle have won him respect, even if such respect is bregruding in some quarters. In the same way, House Stark is generally seen as an honorable house to play in the LCG, with fewer tricks and games than Lannister or Targaryen can bring to bear. When a Stark house card hits the table, you more or less know what you are going to get—a straightforward battle to the finish.
Fortunately, House Stark does not lack for areas in which they are successful. They are the house that owns the Military challenge. This primacy is typical of the character Robb Stark (LoW), the Young Wolf, who was never defeated in the field of battle. Even outfoxing great military minds like Tywin Lannister and taking Jaime Lannister captive proved not enough to overcome certain weaknesses, such as breaking the marriage contract with House Frey. He was perhaps the first recipient of Frey Hospitality—who knows if he'll be the last.
While he lived and ruled, Robb’s star burned bright. Winning battles and glory brought him such fame among
I think if George R.R. Martin played the Thrones LCG, he’d be drawn to House Stark. They ensure that characters stay alive on the table for just as brief of a time as Martin allows them to live in his novels. However, it has been rumored Martin’s wife threatened that if he kills off Arya, she will divorce him. Such fierce loyalty among readers towards Arya is certainly commonplace, and her resourceful, precocious nature leads to some interesting card effects in the LCG.
First off, just as Arya Stark (CoS) had to stick to the shadows and blend in with her surroundings during her escape from King’s Landing, so too House Stark can bring one of the strongest Shadows builds to the table. Arya herself is an amazing, repeatable claim soak, and Shadows Catelyn Stark (AToT) is so strong as to engender hatred like few other cards. But the Queen of all of these shadows cards is Meera Reed (TftH), whose ability to hop in and out of shadows, doing damage each time, is among the strongest in the game. In the same way, House Stark’s Lords and Ladies are flitting around the periphery of the story in books 4 and 5, but they are gathering power, experience, and will certainly have a say in the final outcome of the story.
Just as I have mentioned above, all is not well with House Stark during the story. Eddard is beheaded for his loyalty to the True King, Stannis. Robb is murdered at his uncle’s wedding feast, along with his mother and many of his banners. Arya is across the Narrow Sea, fighting for survival and reinventing herself as a Faceless Man. What caused all of this turmoil? Well, largely, House Bolton happened.
Roose Bolton (DB) switched sides on Robb Stark while he was away campaigning. Rather than recapturing Winterfell from Theon Greyjoy’s Ironmen, Bolton took it for himself and aligned his fates with the Lannisters, grabbing Harrenhal (ODG) for his trouble. This unpredictable switching of loyalties is borne out by an extremely fun and exciting subtheme, House Bolton. Usually very strong for their cost, Bolton characters all carry a drawback, usually that of switching control. Reek (MotM) is king among these cards. You trade Reek for a character of your choice, a mechanic which seeks to encapsulate the many forms that Reek has taken throughout the books. I wouldn't expect to see the Boltons win a tournament anytime soon, but underestimate them at your peril. Don't make the same mistake that Robb Stark did.
Thanks for joining me on this latest brief overview of a Great House of Westeros. In two weeks, we will return to the house of my own allegiance, House Targaryen. Until next time, thanks for reading.
- Archrono, bigfomlof and ringworm like this
15 Comments
Even it it probably isn't a card that is a staple in Stark decks, Ser Dontos Hollard (TftRK)'s response really captures that particular character in a great way. Love that it's when standing, not kneeling, that the response is triggered.
I don't consider myself a Stark player, but I do enjoy playing my Bolton deck on a regular basis. I've managed to pull off a few wins with it, once by swapping Reek (MotM) for Rhaegal (QoD) currently loaded with a couple of power tokens.
I love Ser Dontos Hollard as a Nedly card, but it's just sad that the cost and narrow use means he never gets played
I think after this series on houses I'm going to focus on specific Nedly cards. Maybe Ser Dontos will be one of them....you'll have to stay tuned!
Also, I don't believe Stark is below average for card advantage. From Jeyne Westerling (ASoS), Maester Luwin (FtC), Harrenhal (ODG), Maege Mormont (AHM), The Blackfish (LoW), To Be a Wolf (SB), Rickon Stark (MotA), Guard at Riverrun (LoW), Tully search abilities, and others I'm probably forgetting Stark is not hurting for card draw or card advantage.
I know that they used to be those things but I think now its only a perception.
I am an avid Stark player and always trying to build a better deck. It is really hard since I mostly face Targ and Martell decks. I have not figured out the right balance to beat the decks my opponents make.
PS There is no attachment form of Ghost
Also, having some card advantage options doesn't mean that they're not below average, IMO. They have good search stuff, but nothing like Lannister, martell or even Targaryen. They are better than Bara for sure and probably Greyjoy too.
@ogseamus You are right! But I guess Jon Snow is not really a stark either.....sp I was either half right or half wrong?
As to card advantage, I'd say Martell is worse than Stark, and Targ might be equal if you count graveyard recursion.
Lately Stark has been getting some good intrigue characters, many with deadly, to round out their icon base, but Targ is still stronger. Just because one or two builds out of the house don't focus on it doesn't mean they're weak. Targ has TONS of useful TriCons and solid INT characters. I'll disagree there too.
Greyjoy can be better in INT than Stark if they want, though they're not usually built that way I admit. Euron, Asha, Aeron, and Alannys, however, are totally solid INT characters. So I guess I don't regret what I wrote, but it is noted that Stark is rounding out that weakness as well.
Now as to Targaryens, yes, they have great card advantage through recursion, but they have to draw into it. Furthermore the card advantage granted by Harrenhal is strictly better than that granted by Meraxes (which is fair since Meraxes costs less and does more). Jhogo, meanwhile, is amazing, if you can win a military challenge with him on the offense. Harder to pull off than Maester Luwin's ability though it does have a correspondingly better reward.
And I don't believe "find virtually any location you want and put it into play" is all that hard to fit into a deck, though giving up the agenda does hurt a bit.
As to intrigue, I have never heard a Lannister PBtT player go "Man, those darn Greyjoys just shut down my intrigue challenges." Have you? Euron's a great (5 cost) intrigue character, sure, but he's still loosing the challenge to Catelyn Stark (Core) when he's on the attack, and loosing his life if he defends vs. Arya Stark (tHoBaW). (Hey look, that's 2 stark characters, both of whom are better for intrigue, for his cost alone. . .) Ditto the other 3 you mentioned. And that's assuming the Stark player is being nice and even letting them have intrigue challenges against him at all, which isn't a requirement.
As to Targ having great tricons, that's true, you have 5 great tricons (off the top of my head). However between those 3 characters you have 3 vanilla (as far as intrigue challenges go), 1 with Joust (I'll defend with Core Catelyn, how'd that Joust work out for ya?) and one with Melee (see Joust). There's no stealth and no deadly, which are both much better at forcing intrigue challenges through. Stark meanwhile brings deadly, stealth, and doesn't kneel to their intrigue challenges. Which would you rather have?
That's hardly all Martell has.House Messenger (PotS), Flea Bottom Scavenger (AToT), Herald of the Sun (SB), Palace Spy (WotN), Dornish Paramour (TTotH), and the possibility of Quentyn Martell (VD). All easy to play out of pretty much any Martell build.
I write this as a Greyjoy player, albeit admittedly one of Maesters, but I've never had any problem with intrigue, and often find Lanni PbtT decks easy to beat. Alannys and Asha are fantastic characters, both 3 Str Intrigue; there's also Murenmure, Moqorro, Wendamyr, Wex Pyke, and Kerwin if you just want a cheap one, all very good options that will mostly feature in just about any Greyjoy deck.
You say there's no Stealth or Deadly, but from where I'm sitting Young Griff is a tremendous card with an intrigue icon and stealth. Pyat Pree is also very strong and presents an Intrigue challenge of a different type. There are many different good versions of Dany, all of whom are 3 strength intrigue. You keep bringing up Core Catelyn, but a) the vast majority of people play Jump Cat, and b ) if you try to play Core Cat against a Targaryen deck, it probably won't last long, while if you try to play it against Greyjoy look for Alannys to be cancelling her.
Stark are definitely a lot, lot better at intrigue than they used to be, but they're still either the weakest or close to it, depending on your point of view.
I think Maege Mormont is very narrow since giving up an agenda isn't an easy choice. Do you want card advantage and search from a character or do you want the benefits of an agenda?
I also don't think Harrenhall is in Meraxes' league. Yes, searching and choosing is better than just drawing one, but being more expensive and having a conditional draw is far less reliable than just drawing a card every dominance phase. Harrenhall is basically exactly the same as Shade of the Evening in location form.
I think it's a really good thing that Stark has many more options than they used to in terms of card advantage, but I still think they're below average compared to the other houses.
I also agree with JCWamma on Greyjoy intrigue. In Tulsa, since nobody plays Maesters, things get a bit skewed, and since PBtT was the deck du jour for a long time, AND since some of our better players choose Stark, things are different than in the national meta. Although: I agree that past perceptions still hold a lot of sway when evaluating the cardpool and I'm going to build a Stark deck to test out your ideas, Shadowcat. We will see where that leads me.
Philisophically, I also have to argue that just icons, STR, and keywords isn't enough to tell the whole story about challenge reliance. You have to account for Targ burn's ability to affect things, Greyjoy's resilience to Deadly due to saves, and so on. Stark has some of these things, like Core Cat, Jumping Cat, and Frozen Outpost, but I still think Targ's are better.
By way of experiment, ask Robert if he would rather play a Stark or a Targ deck with his PBJ deck?
House Messenger is good. Flea Bottom Scavenger is great if you're running a brotherhood deck or you draw him first turn, otherwise he's worthless. Every house has a herald so you can't exactly use that as an example of something that makes Martell good, and its not card advantage anyways, it is deck manipulation. Paying 2 gold and discarding a card to draw 2 cards isn't exactly great, especially with a "must win a challenge" restriction on top of that. And yes, Quentyn is a possibility, but on the other side you have The Kindly Man, which is card advantage as well.
I never said Lannister PBtT was a great deck in the current meta. I was just pointing out that the deck that PBtT (you know, the quintessential intrigue deck) does not want to face ever is a Stark deck, not a Greyjoy deck.
I had forgotten the fact that Young Griff has stealth, entirely my bad on that one. They still lack deadly and does not kneel to attack.
As to the fact that people play jumping Cat, I believe that's another example of how perception can be reality. In my experience, she's not actually that good. Yeah sure, she's strength 3 and she's free, but strength 3 is generally loosing a challenge on the defense. I can loose a challenge at 0 cost just as well with Vale Refugees, and at least they would have the option of making an attack.
And I'm mentioning Core Cat just because she's a good solid intrigue character that no one ever gives credit to. Beyond that, if a character is so good at intrigue challenges that an opponent has to invest a significant amount of resources to over come them and win that intrigue challenge, then they're not weak versus intrigue. And it just seems wrong that I should constantly have to remind people about "You can't even try and intrigue me" Cat in a discussion about Stark and intrigue. . .
And yes, Targ can burn her. And Greyjoy can (theoretically) cancel her. So what? Just because there are answers to a card doesn't mean that the card isn't powerful.
With the new character agendas, and with all the "if you are not running an agenda" effects, it is hardly that clear cut.
Harrenhal's "conditional" draw is going to happen every turn in a stark deck. Heck, I have a hard time believing it wouldn't happen every turn in pretty much every deck. Character's die. That's life in AGoT.
Slothgodfather is nobody? Dennis (don't know if he's got a name here or not, but if you're part of our meta, you'll know who he is) is nobody? Wow. I didn't know I knew so many nobodies. . . (And I feel compelled to mention that I've ran Maesters out of 3 different houses (including Greyjoy and Targ) since I've came to the game.) (Sorry, that comment just struck me as greatly amusing. . .)
Funny enough, that was before I started playing. I've seen Robert's PBtT deck once.
Fair enough.
In the larger context Stark has murder in spades and enough "no attachments & immune to events" to get a large amount of murder through.
Actually I'll concede that fact, I know that he'll say "stark." And he'll say it not because Targ is so good at intrigue, but because his PBtT deck is so vulnerable to burn. In return, go back and listen to the podcasts about Gencon and see how much he talks about Stark intrigue and how much he talks about Targ intrigue.
That being said I think I like Stark's intrigue more than Greyjoy's. Stark has sneaky answers, like and Catelyn Stark (LoW). Stark also has direct intrigue challenge influence with Catelyn Stark (AToT) and Meera Reed (TftH)(bring her out of shadows mid-intrigue challenge against you).
Then they have a cheap option like Sansa Stark (TftRK) who can be conditionally strong. Stark also has the cheap intrigue bolton refugees while Greyjoy's refugees can't help you against intrigue.
Then we can get into their other INT characters. Damon Dance-for-Me, Roose Bolton, Reek, Bran Stark (VD), Osha (AKitN), Maester Luwin (FtC), Ser Jorah Mormont (PotS), etc.
I am not sure what you guys are debating. Effectiveness in an INT challenge? Or best characters with an INT icon?
If we are talking about challenge effects and results itself, then who cares about Moquorro, Kerwin, Alannys Grejoy, or Wendamyr. They are not there to help you win INT challenges as much as they are their to trigger their abilities.
That being said, I think Stark can handle intrigue challenges and have abilities on characters that can benefit much more than Greyjoy.
I'm not purposely discounting the Greyjoy characters for INT challenges(like Asha is amazing), but a lot of them cost a lot or have minimal assistance in winning intrigue outside of a dedicated Holy deck, and even then most of them are just fill-ins for the HOLY crest.
Hard hitting analysis of house strengths and weaknesses! lol
I'm enjoying the discussion. I'll have to take a second look over Greyjoy's cards to see if they had less stealth than I thought in the intrigue categories. Stark's new deadly stuff certainly is a boon, however.
I wonder what new, awesome, OP stuff Greyjoy will be getting out of the next cycle?