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Beyond the Wall, Season 1 Episode 9

Beyond the Wall Podcast Istaril Darknoj orclrob FAQ Game of Thrones

Click here for the podcast.

In this week's episode, Istaril and Darknoj discuss some more regionals news and the podcast challenge set by Nate French: we have a winner! Following a technical glitch of their recording with orclrob, they enlist Gencon overall champion Steven S. to discuss the upcomming FAQ. Together, and with some great ideas carrying over from the lost recording, they hammer out their FAQ expectations/wishlist. They focus balance FAQ/errata, but for rules fixes and other proposed FAQ issues, check out Istaril's thread here.

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  • JCWamma likes this


20 Comments

Nice podcast guys! I am really curios what you think about Lannister deck power right now, especially variants of the Lanni No Agenda deck that won worlds a couple of months ago, and still looks very strong to me.

I've always felt like the American and European meta are quite different: you guys are afraid that Greyjoy and Stark might become very powerful with the restriction of hard control, but to me, here in my local meta, Lannisters are really strong right now, even with all this hard control.
When it comes to 'stalling' decks, my meta had a really simple answer for them: the ASoI agenda. It becomes considerably more difficult to stall with 4 cards in your hand :D
SerMisu - we definitely want to see Pentoshi back on the restricted list. Lannister is in a fairly good place; reliable draw, a great set of events, and its characters are creeping up in efficiency to offset a traditional weakness of the house. The No Agenda (and, in fact, Tunnels) are still very strong decks - but they're both decks that win or lose based on actions in the challenge phase, putting characters on the board.

I don't think the purpose of the balance portion of the FAQ is to neuter every strong deck (although that does tend to be how we see it!) and let new ones emerge, but rather to

1) Nudge the meta away from stagnation (and I actually think this meta has been anything but stagnant at the deck level, although it has been a bit at the archetype level)
2) Fix broken aspects, like the Bran combo
3) Revitalize the game just by forcing us to take another good hard look at the card pool.

That said, I'm really hoping (and expecting) this one to take it a step further and address a growing concern with a negative play experience. Not because it's an NPE, because that varies per person, but because the long-stall games actually cause tournament problems with games regularly going to time, and secondly they de-emphasize the challenge phase the game was built around, devaluing a large portion of the card pool and design effort.
    • bigfomlof, doulos2k, scantrell24 and 4 others like this
I think Martell-Bara Conquest won the Newington, CT store championship yesterday.
Lannisters decks do win by putting characters on the table, but unlike Stark or Greyjoy, they also go for the opponen's hand, stripping away the necessary 'tools' for a long game. And the draw/gold allows them to quickly recover even if you manage to reset the board.
So for me, Lannisters ar far more dangereous than GJ or Stark if the next FAQ hits hard control decks.
The problem with Song of Ice is Stark, Bara and Greyjoy aggrro all say "Ha, that's cute"and them stomp all over you.
I wouldn't like to see Incinerate restricted. It encourages Trait themed decks that don't see enough play.
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PulseGlazer
Mar 31 2014 08:35 PM
Alando - in theory, sure, but allies aren't a theme.

And thank you, Steve. Now you and I are the two that want DM gone.
I guess I must be dumb, because when I look at Bara to me it seems like the thing that is currently pushing it over the top is its hyper-recursion. But rather than addressing the flood of recursive effects, instead lets restrict Desperate Measures? i understand that the search is powerful, but what makes that card so good is that not only do you get to search out a key card and add it to your hand, but the other 4 cards become fuel for the recursion engine. If they didn't (almost) automatically pull those cards out of their discard pile with Mel's Scheme, Dale, Cressen, See Who Is Stronger, etc, then it goes back to being a search card with a cost.
Great Episode Guys!
Of course the Lost episode was better! Ha!
    • agktmte likes this
@Sokhar. I think the point though is that if you go and start restricting the recursion cards, Mel Scheme, Dale, Cressen etc, you hit quite a few bara deck archtypes that need that recurrsion to be viable. When you step back and look at the components of the Bara KoHH decks, desperate measures is one of the key components of making that deck work. Restricting it forces design decisions on the deck builder while not impacting the other archtypes. I think it is an interesting solution. Is desparate measures overpowered by itself? No. Do I think it is a balanced card? Yes.

However in the current meta, it is such an efficient fuel for the character lite, KoTHH decks that I think it is warranted for possible inclusion.
    • agktmte likes this
I see your point orclrob, I just find it kinda short-sighted. Restrict one or two of the recursion effects and you have an impact on non-KotHH Bara builds, yeah. Restrict Desperate Measures and Much and More and you have an impact on every deck build that uses those cards from every single house, not just KotHH. When each card came out they were initially regarded as search/filter cards primarily for combo decks. Its Bara recursion that basically turns them into card draw. The recursion is what makes them problematic, so I'd rather address that.

However I have the same issue with the designers' refusal to fix the damn Viper's Bannermen so they don't have to continually restrict cards they had no concept of printing back when the Bannermen came out. So I guess I won't be surprised if they restrict DM/MaM, but it will reflect a continued insistence on not fixing the root of the problem.
I would hate to see Meraxes restricted. In some games, that's Targ's only means of reliable draw. If it's OOH usage is what puts it over the top, make it House Targ Only. And considering how often Burn wins tournaments ( ... ) as frustrating as it might be to play against, we aren't seeing the Burn archetype over-represented, IMHO. But, I'm a Targ Burn player... so I know I'm biased.

I think the Bara recursion dilemma is definitely a thorny one to address correctly. We need a solution that tones down the Army recursion KotHH build without destroying the other Bara archetypes that would simply die without that recursion. Let's not forget that last year, Bara was almost universally considered the worst house. While the KotHH deck can be pretty ridiculous, balancing this so that Bara doesn't just return back to its lackluster status is important.

If you restrict both Westeros Bleeds AND Favorable Ground, you force deckbuilders to choose their reset path and eliminate the reset-crazy Limited decks and you'd confine those cards to very specific builds (and soft-ban them in practically every other build... but honestly, prior to the end of last year, those cards had not seen much play... at least not since 2012 when I started). Maybe that's too far, but it would go a long way to helping ensure people continue to play the game centered back onto the Challenge phase again.
On the Bara front, I'd love to see them restrict Red Queen's Faithful. That pretty much solves it (assuming Preston or Jaime and/or Scheme hits the list too), because it's the Faithful that a) gives the stall decks more reliability to set their combo up before the opponent reaches 15 power, and B) ensures there's zero chance of the opponent reaching 15 power once that combo IS set up.

On the Bara front, I'd love to see them restrict Red Queen's Faithful. That pretty much solves it (assuming Preston or Jaime and/or Scheme hits the list too), because it's the Faithful that a) gives the stall decks more reliability to set their combo up before the opponent reaches 15 power, and B) ensures there's zero chance of the opponent reaching 15 power once that combo IS set up.


Would not making SwiS work solely on neutral and Bara chars / armies be more sensible than restricting RQF? Do we really think SwiS was designed to cheat OOH armies and knights into play? (This from someone who loves this deck!)
Well, it might be, but then we'd have more balance errata, and Istaril would cry!
and we dont want to see istaril cry...its horrible thing to see. Its like seeing a little puppy crying...
I'm sure that's why SWiS was designed. It's sure the only thing I've ever used it for.
    • doulos2k, JCWamma and istaril like this
Kennon... though the fact that Nate has seemed hell bent on ensuring every iteration of your deck gets nuked with every FAQ... that could be evidence that it wasn't how he intended it to work. B)
    • darknoj and istaril like this