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Forgotten Plans - Current Sleepers

Small Council Forgotten Plans Kennon

After quite a delay, I welcome you to a brief return of Forgotten Plans! Forgotten Plans is a column that takes a look at cards, decks, and strategies that have fallen out of favor at the moment but remain potent or are looking newly potent at the moment due to the current state of the game. Things are under works, so hopefully we’ll have a more permanent writer in this column soon.

This week, I’d like to talk a little bit about some of my card choices from a Martell deck that I recently played in the 2013 Missouri Regional. Those of you who listen to 2C1C already know that I fought the decision to play The Long Voyage until the last minute and that the TLV deck that I played first started as a Knights of the Hollow Hill deck that I modified to flow a little better as an 85 card deck that needed regular resources. What you might not know are some of the key cards that I included in the deck which I felt were really right for the field right now.

Spear Phalanx (HtS) - This is a card that I found while looking for some more influence based effects to round out the KotHH version of the deck. When I converted, I was on the fence about including it because the jump from a two to three influence effect in an eighty-five card deck is pretty big due to variance. I wound up keeping it in, however, and I am very glad that I did so. In the increasingly aggro focused meta that has developed this Regional season, Spear Phalanx is a phenomenal deterrent card that can really slow the game down. My most popular targets are probably Cersei Lannister or Stannis Baratheon. It’s still useful against many other characters as well, and if you can hit something without a dupe, discard saves are far less common than kill so you’re likely to take out your opponent’s most threatening attackers. It’s also nice to have the Spear Phalanx on offense. If you don’t happen to have enough influence or have To the Spears! revealed as your plot, a four strength bicon attacker with deadly is nothing to sneeze at.

Sun Stroke (QoD) - The time is ripe for negative attachments. With the restriction of the Tin Link, attachments as a whole became much more viable. I had thought at first that people would just default to some of the other attachment control to shore things up in the meantime, but instead it looks like most folks have opted instead to forgo attachment control at all. While I don’t expect this trend to continue, for the moment, it’s a great time to include something like Sun Stroke. Aside from the Tin Link restriction, the agro meta also plays into my choice of Sun Stroke. Against any of the agro decks like Baratheon that want to attack with multiple characters to maximize their renown and the like, Sun Stroke forces them to alter their challenge math or immediately lose their key Stannis or Knight of Flowers to the minus strength response. If your opponent opts to play around this, you've probably slowed them down immensely to help set up your own board control. Of course, Sun Stroke has another key line of text which can often go overlooked when seen next to the flashy response- that glorious “Cannot be Saved” text! This means that you can also drop it on the opponent’s most fearsome or key character and make certain that they’ll die to Valar Morghulis or other kill effects. This is particularly potent text with the power and popularity of Greyjoy at the moment.

Words Are Like Arrows (WLL) - Another piece of the deck that came from the KotHH background, Words Are Like Arrows turned out to be much easier to pay for all day than I expected. I don’t think there was ever a time when I didn’t have influence to play a two influence event which assuages my fears about the variance of resources in an 85 card deck quite a bit. The KotHH build was one that I started work on when Rusted Maesters was looking to be a popular option here in our group and I was looking for tools to tech against it. Conveniently, those decks had nothing that could save from a return to hand effect, which let me use this to bounce Maesters and remove chains in an indirect manner. It also turns out to work well against any number of power grabbing characters in order to slow the game down. It’s a surprisingly versatile event and players really should not overlook the ability to use it after losing a challenge as the attacker. Feel free to throw a chump attack at that 47 strength maester that the opponent is planning on standing with Meereenese Fighting Pit just so you can bounce their character. If they let it through, “hey, free challenge!” Then you can get them when they swing back at you.

The Red Viper (APS) - Most people would choose the immune Viper in a heartbeat, and up until this deck, I would have heartily agreed with them. Still, Greg and Darryl have been talking this Viper up for quite awhile and on a bit of a lark, I decided to give him a try. The verdict is that he’s completely awesome. I wouldn’t say he’s hands down better, but he can really help you put and keep pressure on with less support and careful play than the immune Viper. Much like Words Are Like Arrows, don’t forget that you can trigger him to gain gold tokens even when you lose on attack. This gives chump attacks an even higher than normal value and charges him up for some truly devastating turns. I’d say that I was using up his gold pretty quickly just to keep standing him rather than raising claim, but the stealth and renown combination on a tricon leads to him gathering power even faster than his sturdier brother. On your To the Spears Turn! He really hits a homerun. This guy closes out games hands down.

Crossroads (Core)- This one is probably the most surprising entry in the list for any readers. When I made the conversion from KotHH to TLV, I really wanted to make certain that I had enough influence and enough gold/reduction. As another who’s built TLV knows, figuring out the right resource curve and ratio for a deck that size can take a bit of finesse. As well, even with a larger than normal deck and the large number of Martell restricted cards, there were a lot that I wanted to include in the deck. This led me to trying to figure out the most efficient way to fit in both resource types and it turns out that the number of cards that produce both is awfully low. Crossroads hasn’t really seen play in the LCG since the early Core days when Targaryen desperately needed any and all influence it could find. These days most folks shy away from it for the slow return on gold investment. I’m glad to say, however, that in practice, I was always happy to have Crossroads at my disposal and it provided the perfect confluence of resources to help me make the most of the additional cards that I was drawing due to The Long Voyage.

So there you have it, folks, another long awaited look at underrated or overlooked cards.
  • Archrono, WarrenC, Bomb and 7 others like this


21 Comments

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scantrell24
Jun 13 2013 02:38 PM
I've seen a lot of Quentyn decks running "the other Viper" as well, even without the immunity and protection from Power of Blood.

Words Are Like Arrows would be a lot more intriguing if it couldn't be stopped by dupes, although it does get around Bodyguard nicely.
I've been a fan of that Viper for a long time. Curses to you for raising his profile!
    • GameOfPwns likes this
Spear Phalanx is really a hard sell for me because of the entire cost of discarding 1 character(attacking mind you). 5 gold to have the character out and then 3 influence and having to kneel them just to use it. It just seems like a lot to pay. The character itself is okay, but I just hate the cost of the effect.

Arianne's Conspirators (WLL) is a similar example of this, but at least you can use their ability without the need to pay any costs and the character can still be used in challenges. Obviously this is a bad cost:str ratio, but only for VB and burn protection purposes. Anyone use her with fantastic effect?
    • LorasTyrell and PulseGlazer like this
I also really love this version of TRV a lot.
I never understood the big hate for the crossroads especially out of targ, ur getting two gold for it basically. Lannisport Treasury (LotR) sees play in some lanni decks and that is limited and isn't as differece as crossroads is for targ. It isn't as good for martell because influence just gives them effects not more income but could see it being solid card for them to.
great article. these are all some strong cards that I kinda forgot about--especially words are like arrows. nicee
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LorasTyrell
Jun 13 2013 06:37 PM

Spear Phalanx is really a hard sell for me because of the entire cost of discarding 1 character(attacking mind you). 5 gold to have the character out and then 3 influence and having to kneel them just to use it. It just seems like a lot to pay. The character itself is okay, but I just hate the cost of the effect.

Arianne's Conspirators (WLL) is a similar example of this, but at least you can use their ability without the need to pay any costs and the character can still be used in challenges. Obviously this is a bad cost:str ratio, but only for VB and burn protection purposes. Anyone use her with fantastic effect?

3 influence is a lot, but it's also a strong ability, what bothers me more is the fact you have to kneel it.

Arianne Conspirators are potentially awesome but they should have been 3str...
    • PulseGlazer likes this
I've loved Sun Stroke for a long time but it was just too fragile when Tin Link was around. It's absolutely brutal in Targ Black Sails though, because it's cheap, pretty easy to recur, and don't forget you can naval in to help attack or defend against yourself to manipulate the challenge math and guarantee your unsaveable attachment-based kills hit home.

If you can get Bronze Link/Pale Steel Link working, you can recur it in the middle of the Challenge Phase even. Brutal.
    • Kennon and Sligui like this

I never understood the big hate for the crossroads especially out of targ, ur getting two gold for it basically. Lannisport Treasury (LotR) sees play in some lanni decks and that is limited and isn't as differece as crossroads is for targ. It isn't as good for martell because influence just gives them effects not more income but could see it being solid card for them to.


Crossroads is really not good out of KotHH(not that you mentioned it, but that's one of the Targ decks that makes use of the influence that comes to mind) because you'll only be able to use the influence. In a non-HH built, it could merit some use.
In other houses, if you don't have Crossroads in Setup, it will take you 2 rounds to make up for it's initial gold cost and potentially 1 round if you use it's influence immediately. The other problem with Crossroads is that it is a non-limited income providing location, which means it isn't protected by a lot of location hate.
Personally, I'd rather use the Free City locations for the influence. You can also use the reduction immediately most of the time depending on the number of cards in your deck with the Trait it can reduce.
    • Sligui and HidaHayabusa like this

Crossroads is really not good

There you go. I can agree with that.
I think Arianne's Conspirators have additional problems over the Phalanx though, due to relying on a much more specific random chance of what's pulled from your hand in order to work and in only targeting locations or attachments. And don't forget that you're trading a card of your own for a card of theirs every time if you do manage to trigger them.

10 times out of 10, I'd choose expensive targeted character removal over conditional attachment/location removal that I have next to no control over.
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asmoothcriminal
Jun 13 2013 11:28 PM

I think Arianne's Conspirators have additional problems over the Phalanx though, due to relying on a much more specific random chance of what's pulled from your hand in order to work and in only targeting locations or attachments. And don't forget that you're trading a card of your own for a card of theirs every time if you do manage to trigger them.

10 times out of 10, I'd choose expensive targeted character removal over conditional attachment/location removal that I have next to no control over.


I can agree with some of that, but one thing I think that can be cool about them (though to be fair I've never used them and doubt I would) but if you have 2 in play you can trigger it twice. If they pull a 0 cost or 1 cost location you can discard any of theirs no matter what the value. However, it is very conditional and you are sacrificing your own hand. Not too often you have a location in your hand that you don't mind losing..

I think Arianne's Conspirators have additional problems over the Phalanx though, due to relying on a much more specific random chance of what's pulled from your hand in order to work and in only targeting locations or attachments. And don't forget that you're trading a card of your own for a card of theirs every time if you do manage to trigger them.

10 times out of 10, I'd choose expensive targeted character removal over conditional attachment/location removal that I have next to no control over.


I do agree in general. I just wanted to make a point of how Arianne's Conspirators is an expensive character but doesn't have a high cost to use their ability. While Spear Phalanx ends up requiring at a minimum 5 gold, 3 influence, and being unable to use the character in a challenge without help in standing them just to remove a participating attacker. However, I do fully believe in an abilities existence being almost as valuable as the ability itself. Your can always use Spear Phalanx as a form of bluffing to keeping the opponent from using their best characters. Forces the opponent to make harder decisions and potentially the incorrect one if you aren't bluffing.
The Red Viper (APS) is the Viper I use for my Quentyn deck. When the aim is to win by losing he is great, especially in joust when the opponent can't help but attack you. Also in melee, I've found opponents try not to attack me to stop my accumulating gold on the viper which allows me to get through challenges relatively untouched. Great article and the Viper discussed definitely needs to be tried before disregarding him in favour of
The Red Viper (PotS).
    • celric and HidaHayabusa like this

Great article and the Viper discussed definitely needs to be tried before disregarding him in favour of The Red Viper (PotS).


I also like that the coin stands him. You never know when you're going to face Balerion the Black (RotO) and this Viper will make the Targ player second guess how many times they should attack you.
Hi Celric, yes this is exactly right, more often than not I'm using gold to stand him unless I can do serious damage with a two claim challenge. I've played against dragon maesters and it was basically just a rush to see who could get to 15 power. Throw in a few Taste for Blood (PotS) and usually I'm claiming more power for challenges I lose than my opponent is for winning.
Ah, Taste for Blood is another card enjoying a serious return. Love that card so much!
How about Greyscale (tHoBaW) to fuel more gold on the Viper? Maybe a bit risky...
I like the article, but Crossroads are so damn bad.

Compared to the shivering sea or tyrosh:

1) In the round you played it:
- crossroads: -2 gold, +1 influence
- shivering sea: +1 influence
- Tyrosh: -1 gold, +1 influence (maybe +0 gold)

2) in the round after that
- crossroads: -1 gold, +2 influence
- shivering sea: +2 influence
- Tyrosh: -1 gold, +2 influence (maybe +0 gold)

3) next round:
- crossroads: +3 influence
- shivering sea: +3 influence
- Tyrosh: -1 gold, +3 influence (maybe +0 gold)

4) next round:
- crossroads: +1 gold, +4 influence
- shivering sea: +4 influence
- Tyrosh: -1 gold, +4 influence (maybe +0 gold)

Two gold is far to much for that card... setup is a big point. They should errata it and add a +1 initative, then the card may be played...
Sure, sure, it's not a great card, but calculations like that are somewhat misleading in AGOT. They work perfectly fine in a game like Netrunner where you have a running resource pool that isn't reset by a game mechanic. Things alter a bit in AGOT, however, because our resource pool is reset every turn. With that in mind we get something more like this:

Round 1:
Crossroads: -2 Gold, +1 Influence
Shivering Sea: -0 Gold, +1 Influence (possible +1 gold at the expense of -1 influence)
Tyrosh: -1 Gold, +1 Influence (possible -0 or +1 gold)

Round 2:
Crossroads: +1 Gold, +1 Influence
Shivering Sea: +0 Gold, +1 Influence (possible +1 gold at the expense of -1 influence)
Tyrosh: +0 Gold, +1 Influence (possible +1 or +2 gold)

Round 3:
Crossroads: +1 Gold, +1 Influence
Shivering Sea: +0 Gold, +1 Influence (possible +1 gold at the expense of -1 influence)
Tyrosh: +0 Gold, +1 Influence (possible +1 or +2 gold)

All the turns from 2 on really will look the same. Since both resource pools reset, we can't really give a running tally on resources in the same way. In Netrunner, if I played something like Crossroads that game me the figures you mention at first, I would certainly be less able to play cards. Say I had 4 gold and then spent 2 on Crossroads. I would be immediately unable to play a 3 cost or higher card, and would remain down from playing a 5 cost card for several turns. On the flipside, in Thrones say I have a 4 gold plot. Yes, on that first turn I spend 2 on Crossroads and everything is the same, but on the next turn if I reveal another 4 gold plot, I now have 5 gold available on the very next turn, which plays out substantially differently than a running total resource pool.
Yeah, this is the way ressources work in game of thrones and the reason why you should include ressources. But you will play those fiefdoms, those +1/+1 unique, those streets, those seas and they all help you to bring out a cost five character as well. So it does not justify to play a 2-cost-ressource with such a bad ratio.