146 replies to this topic

[Hakkor]

Good analysis overall. I'll add up a little by my own game experience.

 

Ambush (in my case 1x): even conditional, having a single card lets you have it in hand and create great swings in combat. It may seem overkill, but using it to break/defend a capital o a key conflict can turn games. It's earning a 6 fate equivalent boost for a cost of 3. Even if it looks situational, deploying a cost 4-5 characters plus a weenie is quite common. It's specially good when attacking/defending with a cheap character and your opponent wastes his bowing/dishonoring stuff on him.

 

Blackmail (in my case 2x, could also be 1x): the chance to turn a probe attack in your favor and claim the ring is priceless. Particularly flashy if you reduce the cost with city of lies. It's specially effective against characters like Brass Samurai, since you can take control before it gets honored. It's also brutal when taking control of a courtier and combining it with Spies at Court, or use it to dump any other dishonoring efect with the Rumormonguer.

 

Court Mask (i'd say x1 or x2): This cad got clogged in my hand when I ran 3 copies. But playing just a single copy can help freeing your deck for more spaces while benefiting from its comination. The most important part is that dishonoring is part of the effect, not the cost. So it could be activated when attached to an already dishonored character.

 

Favored Niece: don't let the stats fool you. When I started to run the deck with many 1x and 2x copies, this character became a cycling monster and let you always have the right tool in hand.

 

Shosuro Actress: can attack/defend a political conflict, get discarded and bring a readied military character from the discard pile for another conflict. Cheesy if timed well.

 

Shosuro Illusionist: Stats are incredible. Very few characters have a value 3 raw stat for cost 2. And the skill is extremely useful overall.

 

 

Would you consider the Magnificent Kimono in a Phoenix spalsh? The extra honoring is very useful to pay dishonor costs. A Hiroue or Shoju with one of those is scary. Even if it eventually backfires, the Illusionist can prove useful. And it's another buffing utility to ensure a province breaks.

[freemandas]

This is my actual scorpion deck. After playing several games, I realized that you want to have an amount of differents tricks in hand and for that I Think number 2 is perfect in many cases.

 

As I said in other threads, I love cards like: Mirumoto's Fury, Shosuro Actress and Adept of Shadows

 

Stronghold:  
1x City of the Open Hand (Core Set #6)

Role:  
1x Seeker of Air (Core Set #214B)

Province: (5)  
Air (2/2) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (0/1)  
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Secret Cache (Core Set #13)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

Character [Dynasty]: (39)  
3x Bayushi Liar (Core Set #95)
3x Bayushi Manipulator (Core Set #96)
3x Bayushi Shoju (Core Set #107)
3x Bayushi Yunako (Core Set #105)
3x Blackmail Artist (Core Set #98)
2x Favored Niece (Core Set #102)
3x Shosuro Actress (Core Set #103)
2x Shosuro Miyako (Core Set #104)
3x Sinister Soshi (Core Set #97)
3x Soshi Illusionist (Core Set #99)
3x Yogo Hiroue (Core Set #106)
3x Young Rumormonger (Core Set #101)

Character [Conflict]: (5/10)  
3x Adept of Shadows (Core Set #180)
2x Unassuming Yōjimbō (Core Set #181)

Attachment: (6)  
3x Fiery Madness (Core Set #183)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

Event: (29)  
2x Ambush (Core Set #188)
2x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
1x Blackmail (Core Set #189)
3x Calling in Favors (Core Set #186)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x For Shame! (Core Set #207)
3x Forged Edict (Core Set #184)
1x I Can Swim (Core Set #187)
2x Indomitable Will (Core Set #158)
3x Mirumoto’s Fury (Core Set #159)
3x Way of the Scorpion (Core Set #185)

Holding: (6)  
3x City of Lies (Core Set #108)
3x Favorable Ground (Core Set #128)
 

I'm trying now with Indomitable, but it's possible I'll change it for Tatooed Wanderer.

[sparrowhawk]

That looks a really good list. I particular like the tricks with Indomitable Will and Favourable Ground and that you are using City of Lies in such a 1+ cost event heavy build, I assume a one shot 1F injection?

Lots to ponder here and I'm certainly going to take on board the x2 versatility insight. Thanks for sharing and I hope you come back soon with more insights.

[Hakkor]

I really like the Tattoed wanderer idea. It gives you another source of covert, making powerful combos with the unassuming yojimbo.

 

And it's a 2/1, which is perfect for military surprise probes.

[nungunz]

Been loving Crab as an Ally so far. Between Unassuming Yojimbo and Stoic Gunso you can bring out several surprise military breaks.

Gunso does run the assassination risk, but a quick 5 military for two is amazing. Throw in a Fine Katana and you may even be able to pull off a Stronghold break.

Reprieve and Watch Commander are also huge:

2 Watch Commander
2-3 Reprieve
1-3 Stoic Gunso

Depending on your preference.

Weirdly, I've been on a massive fence with Forged Edict. It's been surprisingly edge case to the point where I only run a single copy and have considered going to zero.

Need to play with Dragon and Pheonix allies a bit more (have also considered Crane)

[sparrowhawk]

Hmmm... Crane eh? Your comment intrigued me enough to investigate what this would look like...

Playing 3 kill events is appealing. Especially as Way of the Scorpion can make Noble Sacrifice a bolt from nowhere (after you Court Games for Honoured in a Political conflict or after any Fire Ring win).

Such a build would probably be tempo-based, spurning the flashier cancel-vulnerable Scorpion events for duller but effective old staples. It would leverage Scorpion's plethora of excellent characters, plus their synergies with Poison. Something like...


Clan: Scorpion (allied with Crane)

Stronghold:
1x City of the Open Hand (Core Set #6)

Role:
1x Seeker of Air (Core Set #214B)

Provinces (5)
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Secret Cache (Core Set #13)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

Dynasty (40)
3x Bayushi Liar (Core Set #95)
3x Bayushi Manipulator (Core Set #96)
3x Bayushi Shoju (Core Set #107)
3x Bayushi Yunako (Core Set #105)
3x Blackmail Artist (Core Set #98)
3x Favored Niece (Core Set #102)
3x Shosuro Actress (Core Set #103)
3x Sinister Soshi (Core Set #97)
3x Soshi Illusionist (Core Set #99)
3x Yogo Hiroue (Core Set #106)
3x Yogo Outcast (Core Set #100)
3x Young Rumormonger (Core Set #101)
1x City of Lies (Core Set #108)
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

Conflict (40)
3x Fiery Madness (Core Set #183)
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
3x Admit Defeat (Core Set #147)
3x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
3x Calling in Favors (Core Set #186)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x For Shame! (Core Set #207)
3x Forged Edict (Core Set #184)
2x I Can Swim (Core Set #187)
2x Noble Sacrifice (Core Set #148)
3x Outwit (Core Set #212)
3x Way of the Scorpion (Core Set #185)


Both Clan kills require set-up hence x2. I went with the full complement of 24 Courtiers (more than any other clan) to support 3x For Shame, 3x Outwit, 3x Forged Edict and only 1x City of Lies because 13x cost 1+ events are often situational. With 4 holdings (aids duplicates) and no constraints on unused province slots for Ambush, I would probably try to keep the City in play once found. With Honouring suddenly relevant due to Noble Sacrifice and plenty of situational cards, Favoured Niece as a Courtier is better. Favourable Ground is to solve Ambush over-commit so Storehouse is preferred here with 24x 0-cost conflict cards. Finally, Shameful Display is played with Noble Sacrifice. The build looks lean, unflashy and efficient.


It seems to me there are 4 viable choices for a splash in Scorpion Core pool - maybe Lion as well (just not Unicorn).

Crab
cheat-in + Reprieve, borrow + Stoic Gunso
Watch Commander (if applying Dishonour Loss pressure)
Mountain Does Not Fall (solves Ambush over-commit)

Crane
Noble Sacrifice, Admit Defeat, Political Rival

Dragon
Mirumoto's Fury, Indomitable Will, Tattooed Wanderer

Phoenix
Display of Power, Pacifism, Ishiken Initiate, Supernatural Storm


Finally, apologies if this was very obvious but I shall mention it... Early on in the Crab thread, I expressed reservations about Spies at Court as I did not consider it net positive enough for the opportunity cost of its deck slot as it cost 2 "things" (1C + dishonoured character) to gain 2 "things" (2C random disruption of unplayed cards assuming minimum 2 cards held). However, it occurs to me that Spies at Court was designed to be played with Blackmail. How very thematic!

[Hakkor]

Told you so Blackmail makes incredible combos. Imagine taking control versus a political probing Brass Samurai and Spies at court him.

 

You get:

1) Defend and win the conflict, claiming the ring for imperial favor.

2) Use no defending characters

3) Negate Brass Samurai honoring himself (in case of other characters, you may use its skill in your favor)

4) Dishonor Brass Samurai

5) 2 random cards out of the hand. If that was a probe, it's likely he was holding juicy cards for the strong attack.

 

Same goes after Blackmailing a courtier and using him for a Forged Edict.

 

Once you have blackmail in hand and see a clear use for it, you can play a costly character and pass for the extra fate, so it's not that hard to pay.

[freemandas]

And this is the other kind of deck I'm thinking about it. This goes to dishonour with low bids and punch hard in the opponent's hand with spies at court + earth ring + Shosuro Miyako with the adept, yojimbo and Hiruma and also Night Raid.

 

The idea is to destroy her honor lowing is hand harder. And also have the wonderful cards called Blackmail Artist and Watch Commander.

 

To draw, you have card like: Imperial Storehouse, Bayushi Liar, Secred Cahe, Fertile Field, Seeker Initiate and also the earth ring.

 

Stronghold:  
1x City of the Open Hand (Core Set #6)

Role:  
1x Seeker of Air (Core Set #214B)

Province: (5)  
Air (2/2) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (0/1)  
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Fertile Fields (Core Set #18)
1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)
1x Secret Cache (Core Set #13)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

Character [Dynasty]: (42)  
3x Bayushi Liar (Core Set #95)
3x Bayushi Manipulator (Core Set #96)
3x Bayushi Shoju (Core Set #107)
2x Bayushi Yunako (Core Set #105)
3x Blackmail Artist (Core Set #98)
2x Favored Niece (Core Set #102)
3x Seeker Initiate (Core Set #126)
3x Shosuro Actress (Core Set #103)
3x Shosuro Miyako (Core Set #104)
3x Sinister Soshi (Core Set #97)
3x Yogo Hiroue (Core Set #106)
3x Young Rumormonger (Core Set #101)

Character [Conflict]: (8/10)  
3x Adept of Shadows (Core Set #180)
3x Hiruma Ambusher (Core Set #130)
2x Unassuming Yōjimbō (Core Set #181)


Attachment: (8)  
3x Fiery Madness (Core Set #183)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
2x Watch Commander (Core Set #133)

Event: (24)  
2x Ambush (Core Set #188)
2x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
2x Calling in Favors (Core Set #186)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x For Shame! (Core Set #207)
3x Forged Edict (Core Set #184)
3x Spies at Court (Core Set #209)
3x Way of the Scorpion (Core Set #185)

Holding: (6)  
3x Favorable Ground (Core Set #128)
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)
 

[sparrowhawk]

I like the stategic ambition, freemandas, although I confess I'm less of a fan on its execution (compared to your great Dragon splash list which I have little inclination to tinker with). I would probably build around this core:

Scorpion (Crab) Dishonour

Blackmail Artist x3
Shosuro Miyako x3

Adept of Shadows x3
Unassuming Yojimbo x3
Stoic Gunso x3 (Actress, Blackmail)
Hiruma Ambusher x1

Watch Commander x2

Self Dishonour borrowed
Blackmail x3
Spies in Court x3
Forged Edict x3
Calling in Favours x3
Night Raid (card denial/theft theme)

Debuff & Honour Loss
For Shame x3
Court Games x3
Way of the Scorpion x3
Shameful Display

Keeping Stronghold Relevant
Assassination x3
Banzai x3
Bayushi Manipulator x3 (option)

Card Draw (to mitigate low bids)
Bayushi Liar x3
Seeker Initiate x3
Imperial Storehouse x3
Fertile Fields
Secret Cache

Omitted
Ambush x0 (Reprieve x0)
Favourable Ground x0 (Ambush overcommit)
I Can Swim x0 (can't guarantee Omens)

Ring Focus: Earth > Fire > Air (Initiate: win in defence ideally).


It's essentially your list but with Blackmail, Stoic Gunso and more Dishonour tech instead of Ambush etc which doesn't add to the focus strategy. I am very much a go all-in with a strategy person.

I still prefer your Dragon splash list - but that's a high hurdle to jump!


It occurs to me that Scorpion are the only Clan Core pool that has all of the following:
Card draw
Event control
Attachment control
Character kill
Cheat-in characters
No defender denial
Surprise covert

I think the breadth of their tricks necessitate some hard cut decisions to focus on just one aspect.

[WyrdGM]

So, I have not had a chance to play yet, so I am running pure concept. But Blackmail, then Court Mask, then after the conflict is won, in the final action window, dishonor the character and return the court mask to your hand for later use? 

[Letux]

In 1x core I sacced the guy off to stoic gunso. It'll be far more reliable for Crab to splash blackmail than for us to save 5 though.

[freemandas]

So, I have not had a chance to play yet, so I am running pure concept. But Blackmail, then Court Mask, then after the conflict is won, in the final action window, dishonor the character and return the court mask to your hand for later use? 

 Yes, I think is correct

[NuFenix]

So, I have not had a chance to play yet, so I am running pure concept. But Blackmail, then Court Mask, then after the conflict is won, in the final action window, dishonor the character and return the court mask to your hand for later use?

 

Play only if you are less honorable than your opponent.
Action: During a conflict, choose a character with printed cost 2 or lower controlled by your opponent – take control of that character until the end of the conflict.

 

Attach to a character you control.
Action: Return this attachment to your hand and dishonor attached character.

 
The issue is that you only have control of them from Blackmail until the end of the conflict, you would have to use the action on Court Mask to return it before the conflict is won and therefore not get any bonus from it. As such, the only benefit from putting the mask on someone is because they have high glory and you want to dishonour them due to the mask, but otherwise it wouldn't be worth while.

[WyrdGM]

The issue is that you only have control of them from Blackmail until the end of the conflict, you would have to use the action on Court Mask to return it before the conflict is won and therefore not get any bonus from it. As such, the only benefit from putting the mask on someone is because they have high glory and you want to dishonour them due to the mask, but otherwise it wouldn't be worth while.

From the rules:
An attachment a player controls remains under his or her control even if the card or game element to which it is attached is under an opponent’s control.

So, after the character returns to your opponent, the court mask is still under your control. So, you can still use the action.

[Hakkor]

And, also, dishonoring is part of the effect, not the cost. (Because costs cannot be paid with cards you don't own)

[NuFenix]

However won't the rule "If a situation arises in which an attachment is not legally attached, discard the attachment." kick in,as it only attaches to a character you control, and force it to be discarded?

[WyrdGM]

However won't the rule "If a situation arises in which an attachment is not legally attached, discard the attachment." kick in,as it only attaches to a character you control, and force it to be discarded?

Control is a requirment of the attachment, but losing control should not ruin that, but if it does, that means blackmail can be amazing for forcing a lot of discards. There are 10 cards that only allow attachment with something you control. If anyone attaches to a 2 or 1, the. You can blackmail, force a discard.

But I think the way I said is the more likely interpretation.

It would be nice to see an official ruling.

[NuFenix]

That sentence makes it appear it is doing constant checks, which has been done in other FFG games, and so using Blackmail to drop their attachments from their dude would be cheeky.

[NuFenix]

http://www.cardgamed...ns-from-gencon/

It was asked and then answered without me realising already - Yep, Blackmail is just that filthy

[WyrdGM]

http://www.cardgamed...ns-from-gencon/

It was asked and then answered without me realising already - Yep, Blackmail is just that filthy

 

Which is not how I imagined it worked... but it turns out to be better. It is no longer the trick pony I thought... It is the trick pony I need.