204 replies to this topic

[sruman]

Hi.  It's (past) time for me to buckle down and focus on 1 deck to test for Worlds.  Lion is one of the clans I am seriously considering bringing and was hoping to get more experienced Lion players opinions on the list I've played a few games with.  The first question would be whether the Dragon splash is way off and I should default to the seemingly obvious synergy of Unicorn (and the value of spyglass).   Also, how are people feeling about staging ground?  I am honestly not that enamored with it and considering dropping to 1 but perhaps I am playing it incorrectly.  Thanks.

 

Yojin no Shiro

Keeper of Earth

Manicured Garden Air

Ancestral Lands Earth

Night Raid Fire

Shameful Display Void

The Art of War Water

Influence: 12/13, 1 remaining

Dynasty Deck (40)

 Character (34)

 

2x  Akodo Gunso

3x  Akodo Toturi

3x  Deathseeker

3x  Honored General

3x  Ikoma Eiji

3x  Ikoma Prodigy

3x  Keeper Initiate

3x  Kitsu Spiritcaller

3x  Lion's Pride Brawler

2x  Matsu Beiona

3x  Matsu Berserker

3x  Obstinate Recruit

 Holding (6)

 

1x  Favorable Ground

3x  Imperial Storehouse

2x  Staging Ground

Conflict Deck (40)

 Event (29)

 

2x  Assassination

3x  Banzai!

3x  Charge!

3x  Court Games

3x  For Greater Glory

3x  Let Go ///// /

2x  Mirumoto's Fury ////

3x  Ready for Battle

1x  Rout

3x  Strength in Numbers

3x  Way of the Lion

 Attachment (7)

 

3x  Fine Katana

3x  Ornate Fan

1x  Sashimono

 Character (4)

 

1x  Tattooed Wanderer //

 

3x  Vengeful Oathkeeper

[FightingWalloon]

Can you speak to the choice of which characters you left out of your Dynasty deck?

You do not mention Crane as a splash. Is there any argument for splashing to shore up a weakness?

[sruman]

I definitely believe in splashing to shore up weakness as I'm also seriously considering Crab/Crane (but worried about time limits).  I think duellist training, admit defeat, steward, and political rival could all fit very nicely in a lion deck.  Although in comparison with the Crab, I see Lion as more aggressive and thus looking to consistently win 1-turn earlier than an opponent would (although the dragon splash doesn't necessarily support that).  My thinking on the characters I did leave out:

 

Steadfast Samurai -- in the (admittedly few games) I played with him I found the over-5 honor to be too inconsistent for benefit of 1-1 character.  It seemed keepers were just better to fill the annoying characters that never go away slot.

 

Venerable Historian -- She's definitely more tempting than the Steadfast samurai for the possible 4 political, but the - military scared me off for the cost given I couldn't even throw her in for a +1 if desperate to break something.  What are others experience with her?

 

Guardsmen/Courier -- Solid 1-costers for sure but Lion just seems to have so many great dynasty characters they got the chop early.

 

only 2 Gunso -- I don't really like giving up the pass-fate consistently (which might mean I'll just have a problem playing dragon) so a 3rd one was on the bubble only for that reason and, well, pride can leave a sour taste after all

 

only 2 Beiona -- definitely not a character I want to see early.

 

 

Scorpion is already my nemesis clan (hate the denial game), so anything splash that helps with that matchup is tempting for sure (although my guess is Lion has a decent scorpion matchup by itself).

[Atrus]

My experience with the characters you mention are:

 

Steadfast Samurai - If you play conservatively and with Air ring giving you 2 honor, is not that hard to achieve (its not guaranteed, but posible). Then, when his ability is up, he is amazing. With one attachment is a threat every round, can attack or defend in all types of conflicts, your enemy will hate him. Yes, yes, assassinate... I'm happy, my enemy makes easier to me to play the next Steadfast, and is a cheap body.

 

Venerable Historian - Just what Lion wants. Political Walls! Can't be harpooned to a military conflicts, synergy with Stand your Ground, and free Honor when dies. In my oppinion it's an amazing card, always x3 in my Lion decks. So underrated.

 

Guardsmen/Otomo Courtier - I don't play them, but they are solid, even more if you control the Imperial Favour.

 

Akodo Gunso - One of the few cards that I don't like from the core set, including all factions. This guy is very unreliable. You need big fights and send him with more characters in alpha strike, but not always is possible. The dynasty cycling is nice though. I rarely include him in my Lion decks right now.

 

Matsu Beiona - Not fun character to play, but very effective. Good objective for attachments. 2 in deck I think is fine.

 

 

Steadfasts, Historians and Generals are great against Scorpions.

[Hakkor]

Steadfasts, Historians and Generals are great against Scorpions.

 

Yes, they are.

[AkodoWeezy]

So for my guys who are splashing crane, do you find yourselves overpaying for guys? If so under what circumstances?

I've been on a crab splash and have been liking it. Reprieve, stand your ground, for greater glory keep your guys around until you are able to always have a bigger board then your opponent. And the best part is whole doing so you are able to not over pay for anyone and have units around for multiple turns.

Jus asking for some insight here guys. I recognize that having 3x voice of honor can be suuuuuuuper powerful but I am debating on whether or not it out weighs the crab train

[FightingWalloon]

How does this look for a first deck to learn to play the game with?

 

I took the deck-building strategy of splashing to shore up weakness rather than to emphasize strength. I understand that might not be the best choice. What I hoping for here is a solid deck that will be useful as I seek to master game play and learn the card pool.

 

If you have ideas to improve this, please share them.

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com Legend of the Five Rings Deckbuilder

 

 

Deck Clan: Lion

 

Total Cards: (85)

 

Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)

 

Total Influence: (13/13)

 

Stronghold:  

1x Yōjin no Shiro (Core Set #4)

 

Role:  

1x Keeper of Earth (Core Set #215A)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  

1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x The Art of War (Core Set #11)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (43)  

3x Akodo Gunsō (Core Set #71)

3x Akodo Toturi (Core Set #79)

1x Deathseeker (Core Set #72)

3x Honored General (Core Set #77)

3x Ikoma Prodigy (Core Set #68)

2x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)

2x Kitsu Spiritcaller (Core Set #74)

3x Lion’s Pride Brawler (Core Set #75)

2x Matsu Beiona (Core Set #76)

3x Matsu Berserker (Core Set #69)

3x Obstinate Recruit (Core Set #67)

3x Otomo Courtier (Core Set #122)

3x Steadfast Samurai (Core Set #70)

3x Venerable Historian (Core Set #73)

 

Character [Conflict]: (6/10)  

3x Political Rival (Core Set #140)

1x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)

2x Vengeful Oathkeeper (Core Set #160)

 

 

Attachment: (8)  

2x Above Question (Core Set #141)

3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

 

Event: (26)  

1x Admit Defeat (Core Set #147)

2x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Charge! (Core Set #210)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

1x For Greater Glory (Core Set #168)

2x For Shame! (Core Set #207)

3x Ready for Battle (Core Set #165)

3x Rout (Core Set #213)

2x Strength in Numbers (Core Set #169)

3x Way of the Lion (Core Set #167)

 

Holding: (3)  

3x Staging Ground (Core Set #80)

 

[HidaHayabusa]

Having lots of success with this build

 

 

 

Stronghold:  

1x Yōjin no Shiro (Core Set #4)

 

Role:  

1x Keeper of Earth (Core Set #215A)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  

1x The Art of War (Core Set #11)

1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (35)  

3x Akodo Gunsō (Core Set #71)

3x Akodo Toturi (Core Set #79)

3x Deathseeker (Core Set #72)

3x Honored General (Core Set #77)

3x Ikoma Eiji (Core Set #78)

3x Ikoma Prodigy (Core Set #68)

3x Kitsu Spiritcaller (Core Set #74)

3x Lion’s Pride Brawler (Core Set #75)

3x Matsu Berserker (Core Set #69)

3x Venerable Historian (Core Set #73)

3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)

 

Character [Conflict]: (2/10)  

2x Vengeful Oathkeeper (Core Set #160)

 

 

Attachment: (14)  

3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

3x Fiery Madness (Core Set #183)

3x Court Mask (Core Set #182)

2x Sashimono (Core Set #164)

 

Event: (24)  

2x For Greater Glory (Core Set #168)

3x Ready for Battle (Core Set #165)

3x Way of the Lion (Core Set #167)

3x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Charge! (Core Set #210)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

2x Rout (Core Set #213)

2x Forged Edict (Core Set #184)

 

Holding: (7)  

1x Staging Ground (Core Set #80)

3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

3x Favorable Ground (Core Set #128)

[FightingWalloon]

What has been strong about this bid for you? In your games what are you noticing?

[HidaHayabusa]

What has been strong about this bid for you? In your games what are you noticing?

 

The Scorpion attachments are amazing. Having two counterspells is also very handy, and this list is completely free of the small people that require you to be much more honorable to function. It's been functioning really good for me up to now.

[freemandas]

My last design is with crane splash. Today I'll have torunament and I'll prove it.

 

The strategy will consist of always having more honor than the opponent based on low bids and as it carries Voice of Honor try to have at table more honored characters than the adversary (I assume that against crane is going to be very difficult) . Also it takes Political Rival to make a wall in political conflicts and the chance to put in game one more time with Spiritcaller. The rest, is the basic Lion Startegy: put into play a lot of cheap bushi characters, recharge with Staging Ground to promote ideal Charge! (Honored Generald and Toturi) and top off with For Greater glory. You also have Stand your ground and Good Omen to make your big guys stay longer.

 

Preferred rings: Earth to draw cards and put into play the keepers, Air to maintain honor advantage and Fire in case you need more honored characters.

 

Stronghold:  
1x Yōjin no Shiro (Core Set #4)

Role:  
1x Keeper of Earth (Core Set #215A)

Province: (5)  
Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  
1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)
1x Fertile Fields (Core Set #18)
1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)
1x Pilgrimage (Core Set #22)
1x The Art of War (Core Set #11)

Character [Dynasty]: (37)  
3x Akodo Gunsō (Core Set #71)
3x Akodo Toturi (Core Set #79)
3x Honored General (Core Set #77)
3x Ikoma Prodigy (Core Set #68)
3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)
3x Kitsu Spiritcaller (Core Set #74)
3x Lion’s Pride Brawler (Core Set #75)
1x Matsu Beiona (Core Set #76)
3x Matsu Berserker (Core Set #69)
3x Obstinate Recruit (Core Set #67)
3x Steadfast Samurai (Core Set #70)
3x Venerable Historian (Core Set #73)

Character [Conflict]: (3/10)  
3x Political Rival (Core Set #140)

Attachment: (6)  
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

Event: (31)  
2x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
3x Charge! (Core Set #210)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x For Greater Glory (Core Set #168)
2x Good Omen (Core Set #208)
3x Ready for Battle (Core Set #165)
3x Rout (Core Set #213)
3x Stand Your Ground (Core Set #166)
3x Voice of Honor (Core Set #145)
3x Way of the Lion (Core Set #167)

Holding: (6)  
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)
3x Staging Ground (Core Set #80)
 

[Heigai]

I definitely believe in splashing to shore up weakness as I'm also seriously considering Crab/Crane (but worried about time limits).  I think duellist training, admit defeat, steward, and political rival could all fit very nicely in a lion deck.  Although in comparison with the Crab, I see Lion as more aggressive and thus looking to consistently win 1-turn earlier than an opponent would (although the dragon splash doesn't necessarily support that).  My thinking on the characters I did leave out:

 

Steadfast Samurai -- in the (admittedly few games) I played with him I found the over-5 honor to be too inconsistent for benefit of 1-1 character.  It seemed keepers were just better to fill the annoying characters that never go away slot.

 

Venerable Historian -- She's definitely more tempting than the Steadfast samurai for the possible 4 political, but the - military scared me off for the cost given I couldn't even throw her in for a +1 if desperate to break something.  What are others experience with her?

 

Guardsmen/Courier -- Solid 1-costers for sure but Lion just seems to have so many great dynasty characters they got the chop early.

 

only 2 Gunso -- I don't really like giving up the pass-fate consistently (which might mean I'll just have a problem playing dragon) so a 3rd one was on the bubble only for that reason and, well, pride can leave a sour taste after all

 

only 2 Beiona -- definitely not a character I want to see early.

 

 

Scorpion is already my nemesis clan (hate the denial game), so anything splash that helps with that matchup is tempting for sure (although my guess is Lion has a decent scorpion matchup by itself).

 

About that..

 

Steadfast Samurai - 100% agree, Lion still a inconsistent clan to defend, this guy bases on the low bid - character control strategy, wich is not working well.. most times the sacrifices you need to keep 5 honor ahead doesn't woth it.. 

 

Venerable Historian - I don't like chars that don't work every game, also is too much dash characters, lion already uses berserker that is really good, also 2 cost is terrible - assassination..

 

Guardsmen/Courier - I prefer to us them, always works to defend and dont loose honor from unopposed, I use 2 from each.

 

Gunso - Like the cycle, when you suceed using FGG is great, but again, doens't work every game, and 2 cost char..

 

Beiona - I like her, 2 is enough.

 

I will also include deathseeker - I like her, but again, doesn't work every game and 2 cost...

 

I'm waiting for more cards being released to create a consistent Lion deck, want to get off most of two cost guys, and probably steadfast too.. Now most games depends on charge and for greater glory, it's missing some strategy on Lion deck, aren't we the tacticians? I hope some more interesting characters are coming, doing more than "when you are more honored..."

[FightingWalloon]

It looks to me like Lion has three areas that are distinct for it:

 

1) Weenie support 

 

2) Discard pile recursion

 

3) Incentives/mechanics to improve honor

[Grimbo]

 

How does this look for a first deck to learn to play the game with?

 

I took the deck-building strategy of splashing to shore up weakness rather than to emphasize strength. I understand that might not be the best choice. What I hoping for here is a solid deck that will be useful as I seek to master game play and learn the card pool.

 

If you have ideas to improve this, please share them.

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com Legend of the Five Rings Deckbuilder

 

 

Deck Clan: Lion

 

Total Cards: (85)

 

Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)

 

Total Influence: (13/13)

 

Stronghold:  

1x Yōjin no Shiro (Core Set #4)

 

Role:  

1x Keeper of Earth (Core Set #215A)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)  

1x Ancestral Lands (Core Set #15)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x The Art of War (Core Set #11)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (43)  

3x Akodo Gunsō (Core Set #71)

3x Akodo Toturi (Core Set #79)

1x Deathseeker (Core Set #72)

3x Honored General (Core Set #77)

3x Ikoma Prodigy (Core Set #68)

2x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)

2x Kitsu Spiritcaller (Core Set #74)

3x Lion’s Pride Brawler (Core Set #75)

2x Matsu Beiona (Core Set #76)

3x Matsu Berserker (Core Set #69)

3x Obstinate Recruit (Core Set #67)

3x Otomo Courtier (Core Set #122)

3x Steadfast Samurai (Core Set #70)

3x Venerable Historian (Core Set #73)

 

Character [Conflict]: (6/10)  

3x Political Rival (Core Set #140)

1x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)

2x Vengeful Oathkeeper (Core Set #160)

 

 

Attachment: (8)  

2x Above Question (Core Set #141)

3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

 

Event: (26)  

1x Admit Defeat (Core Set #147)

2x Assassination (Core Set #203)

3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Charge! (Core Set #210)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

1x For Greater Glory (Core Set #168)

2x For Shame! (Core Set #207)

3x Ready for Battle (Core Set #165)

3x Rout (Core Set #213)

2x Strength in Numbers (Core Set #169)

3x Way of the Lion (Core Set #167)

 

Holding: (3)  

3x Staging Ground (Core Set #80)

 

 

 

The way I see Lion, you will always be doing 1-2 on the card draw dial. If this is true, then I don't see how a Lion deck can be made at this time w/o the Imperial Storehouse. I'd squeeze at least 2 in here at the price of 5 characters(you know how much I love my decks at 40 instead of 43 ).

 

Who those characters should be is up to you, but I suggest removing:

 

- 1 Honored General

- 1 Venerable Historian

- 1 Toturi

- 2 Akodo Gunso

 

 

I also randomly like Ninja Mystics in Lion, but that may be a terrible card. Undecided.

[FightingWalloon]

The way I see Lion, you will always be doing 1-2 on the card draw dial. If this is true, then I don't see how a Lion deck can be made at this time w/o the Imperial Storehouse. I'd squeeze at least 2 in here at the price of 5 characters(you know how much I love my decks at 40 instead of 43 ).

 

Who those characters should be is up to you, but I suggest removing:

 

- 1 Honored General

- 1 Venerable Historian

- 1 Toturi

- 2 Akodo Gunso

 

 

I also randomly like Ninja Mystics in Lion, but that may be a terrible card. Undecided.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. The Dynasty Deck has only 40 cards. I'm not sure why the deck builder says 43 Dynasty Characters.

 

I was wondering about the Storehouse as a card to add. In a deck trying to draw more cards, though, I thought Gunso would not be a card to cut. I know it draws Dynasty rather than Conflict cards, but still it is extra playable cards when it is played.

 

I will certainly keep your suggestions in mind as I play the deck.

[estyles]

Thanks for the suggestions. The Dynasty Deck has only 40 cards. I'm not sure why the deck builder says 43 Dynasty Characters.

I was wondering about the Storehouse as a card to add. In a deck trying to draw more cards, though, I thought Gunso would not be a card to cut. I know it draws Dynasty rather than Conflict cards, but still it is extra playable cards when it is played.

I will certainly keep your suggestions in mind as I play the deck.

The deck builder adds your Conflict characters to your Dynasty characters - it's weird. I can't tell if it's a bug or just nonintuitive.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm strongly against cutting Akodo Gunsos - I tend to mulligan for them. They help set up a charge and probably gain you an honor. If you have an extra Fate for them or a For Greater Glory, you can even make use of the stat boost from being honored, but I just look at it as more honor pressure. If people continue to play the ridiculous (yet prevalent) strategy of always bidding 5 on the first turn, it's reasonable to get up to 18-20 honor first turn as Lion.

(Personally, I would cut the Otomo Courtiers. I also don't play with the Keeper Initiates in Lion, although it's hard to really argue against them...)

[FightingWalloon]

(Personally, I would cut the Otomo Courtiers.  I also don't play with the Keeper Initiates in Lion, although it's hard to really argue against them...)

 

Cut some or both of these for Imperial Storehouse, perhaps.

 

Other than Spyglass and bidding high on the honor dial, what other ways are there to draw more cards?

[Atrus]

Provinces, and recursion

[Hakkor]

Cut some or both of these for Imperial Storehouse, perhaps.

 

Other than Spyglass and bidding high on the honor dial, what other ways are there to draw more cards?

 - Playing cards more significantly. The rule of thumb: if your intentions for this conflict (win or break) can be achieved by playing a single card, go ahead. If you are going to need 2+ cards, seriously consider the investment. Probably keeping them for a better ocasion is a good idea. Doesn't draw you more cards, but makes your hand more efficient.

 

- Keep pressure on the Earth Ring. You will have to let go other rings with board control effects, but you can supply it with the high value Lion cards.

 

- Fertile Fielgs, and focus on defending it. The Art of War, and let your opponent break it.

 

- Play Seeker and set 2 provinces of your elemnt.  That's 2 extra fate that will come early in the game.

 

- 3x Imperial Storehouse. Period.

 

- And, as always, play as many honor winning cards as possible to increase your bids safely.

 

- Splash alternatives: perfect gift. Doesn't grant you extra cards, but diving 4 cards is usually much better that drawing 1 card blindly.

 

- Splash alternatives: ancestral attachments. Each time they go back to your hand, that's a +1 card. Guide of the Ancestors also applies here. Court Mask too.

[FightingWalloon]

Got destroyed by Phoenix last night. He had two defensive 4/1 guys in first two turns, whiched slowed my early game enough that his board control and money advantage got going.

Not sure what I could have done differently. Really feel like I lost turn one when I committed a lot of resources that he kept from getting a province break.

Phoenix ring tricks really cause pain.