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First Tilt - Common Mistakes

Small Council First Tilt doulos2k

So, you've been playing with some friends or online and you keep running into little issues that trip you up or you find that there tends to be some disagreement between you and your playgroup as to how certain things happen and when they occur. Well, what I'm going to start today is a quick look at some of the most commonly misunderstood rules. You can consider this a part two of Paladin's excellent FAQ from this past Fall.

We're going to go through the game phase-by-phase and give some basic examples of what is typically done and how what's typical can be just plain wrong. This week, we're going to focus on Setup through Marshaling, leaving Challenges through Taxation for my next article.

Setup

During Setup, the most common error a new player usually makes happens well before the game starts - deck building. Most new players get enthralled with certain cards and their effects and never once look at their resource curve. This leads to keeping very expensive cards in the deck with no easy way to get them into play. If you find that you're consistently grabbing a two-card setup, then you need to go back and look at your deck.

Beyond that, the most common errors are the following:
  • You cannot play duplicates to a unique card during Setup. You'll have to wait for first marshaling to play a duplicate.
  • Cards placed during setup are not considered to have entered play. This means that any effect that would trigger by that card being put into play or played from hand cannot be triggered.
  • You cannot place more than one card with the Limited keyword during Setup.
  • An attachment with the Setup keyword still has to have a legal target in order to be placed during Setup. (E.g. Even with Black Amethysts (MotM) in your hand, you'd have to have an Asshai character placed in setup in order to be able to place the attachment). It may sound ridiculous, but I've had more than one new player just play the attachment without a legal target.
Another important point that we should mention is the new Agenda - House of Dreams (ARotD). The location you select for the Agenda is not a valid target during Setup because it is not technically part of your Setup. Only cards that you're actually placing from hand during Setup are valid targets for Setup actions.

Plot Phase

The most difficult thing to grasp during the plot phase is the order of operation.
  • The person who has the highest initiative must choose who the First Player is before any of the plots resolve. This is the most common mistake. Everyone just starts resolving plots before First Player is chosen and then people start drawing cards and... oh yeah, who's First Player?
  • The person chosen as First Player then determines the ORDER of "When revealed" plot resolution. That's right - the person with the highest initiative does not choose order of plot resolution unless they've chosen themselves as First Player. In a Melee, this can be a critical point - the First Player doesn't have to resolve the "When revealed" in any specified order - they can choose to resolve them in any order they desire.
  • All "When revealed" plots resolve before anyone can trigger any passive effects or responses. The only exception to this rule are effects that would save from or legally cancel a plot effect (or text that would make a card an invalid target for a plot effect).
Draw Phase

Draw Cap is three. When I started out, this was very confusing. People have a tendency to erase this rule and think of it as "you can draw five cards per turn." Maybe you're not encountering this problem, but I still get asked from time to time... so here's my breakdown:
  • Master of Laws in Melee is a game or title effect and not a card effect - hence it has no bearing on your draw cap. So, assume when I use all-inclusive words in the next bullets, I am not including Master of Laws.
  • Anything that allows you to draw more than your standard allotment of 2 cards during the draw phase counts against your draw cap. If your agenda allows you to draw 3 cards, you are now limited to being able to draw only two add'l cards that turn.
  • Anything that lowers the number of cards you draw during the draw phase does not add to your draw cap. If you're playing Kings of Summer and somebody makes it Winter so that you only draw a single card during the draw phase; your draw cap is still three cards (meaning the most cards you can draw that turn is four).
  • Any card effect that says "draw" counts against your draw cap. This includes plots.
Marshaling Phase

This phase seems pretty straightforward, except that it isn't. There is so much happening here. The most common thing I see new players forget is you do not count gold until it is your turn to marshal. Why is this? There are cards that can affect gold - some will give a bonus while others will give a penalty. You must wait and see if the player before you plays such a card to determine what your actual income is that turn.

During actual marshaling, there is another area that tends to be overlooked. Player Action order. Believe it or not, while only the Active Player can take actions that cost gold, all Player Actions still go in sequence and every player gets their opportunity to make an action in turn. What confuses this further is every single action taken is a separate, distinct action.

Let's say you're the Active Player and you want to kneel three reducers to get a character in for free. Technically, after every kneel action, every other player has an opportunity to take an action before you kneel the next reducer or play your character. Most of the time, this is meaningless, but there are moments when someone will want to take an action. Not clear? How about this:
  • You kneel a reducer
    • all other players have an opportunity for an action
  • You kneel a second reducer
    • all other players have an opportunity for an action
  • You kneel your third reducer
    • all other players have an opportunity for an action
  • You put your 3 cost character in for free
    • all other players have an opportunity for an action
Make sense? In actual play, most of the time nobody will have any actions, but if someone stops you and says they have an action, don't be surprised (though you might want to be afraid). For instance, a classic example is Ice Fisherman (TWoW). You count gold and the player controlling the Fisherman now is able to steal one from you as their action. If they have more than one Fisherman, they kneel one, wait for your next action, and provided you still have gold, they can kneel another at that point to steal another from you. [EDIT 1/9/13 - there is a bit of a technicality here. The scenario mentioned does assume a few things. To clarify a bit, you have to remember that the First Player always gets to take the first action in any Player Action Window. That means if you are FP and you can spend all of your gold without kneeling any reducers to play a card from hand, the Ice Fisherman's controller cannot steal any gold from you because you're only taking a single action. But, if you are not FP and Ice Fisherman's controller is FP, then as soon as you count gold, they can steal your gold before you're able to take any actions.]

The important thing is not to rush headlong through marshaling without being sure you're giving your opponent time to react to your actions. Why? You need to learn that these actions are possible so that when you go to a tournament and your experienced opponent stops you and says, "Wait, I have a response," you won't be caught totally off guard and it won't mess with your rhythm.

The other thing that pausing does is cause your opponent to have to consider when they want to take their action. For instance, if you know you want to discard a Sea to reduce a character by two, but you don't want your opponent to cancel that action, instead you would kneel a repeatable reducer first and pause... then they have to decide whether they want to cancel that one or wait and see if you'll discard your Sea.

Conclusion

Okay that wraps up this week's article. Next time, I'll tackle Challenges and the most common errors new players make during what is usually the phase where the greatest amount of activity is taking place.

Did I miss something? Are there other mistakes you've seen? Please, let me know in the comments!
  • Zaidkw, bigfomlof, emptyrepublic and 8 others like this


41 Comments

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divinityofnumber
Jan 08 2013 06:50 PM
Wow. This is excellent. I love having something to send to new players in order to help them understand the structure of AGoT. These articles are excellent; they are easy to read and hit very important points. Great work!
New players should also know that certain effects like Renown cannot be forgotten and Passives cannot be forgotten. I face people that want to penalize you for forgetting stuff like that, but it's something that must happen.
@divinity - thanks much!

@Bomb - yes, that's a good point. I was planning on covering Renown during Challenges, but it would be good to make the general comment regarding mandatory passives. They must happen and how to deal with the issue if/when it's forgotten is important.
It's been my understanding that you can play a duplicate during setup, but not as a duplicate. I.E. if you wanted to dup Joffrey Baratheon (PotS) on setup, you could do so by playing him twice during setup (for 2 of your setup gold apiece) and then he becomes a dup after reveal. Am I mistaken? I mean, in practice, I've only seen this happen once when the setup was utterly deplorable, and I imagine it won't be likely I'll see it again, but thought it was technically correct.
+1 and facebook "thumbs up" on the marshaling phase segment. I remember the first time I played against a GJ winter choke in a tournament. opponent had 2 icy fishermen and called out the proper action sequence and just wrecked my game. it was the first i had heard of that.
Also, hellholt engineers utilize a similar tactic of trigger during your opponents marshaling actions.
I would add:

Setup: Anything written on the card (for instance: after [...] enters play) has to be ignored.

Plot: All cards are moribound unless ALL plot effects and ALL responses are done.

Dominance, Standing and Taxation: There are no player actions before the framework events are done (except for shadow cards)

Epic: There are no player action before or after the epic phase.

It's been my understanding that you can play a duplicate during setup, but not as a duplicate. I.E. if you wanted to dup Joffrey Baratheon (PotS) on setup, you could do so by playing him twice during setup (for 2 of your setup gold apiece) and then he becomes a dup after reveal. Am I mistaken? I mean, in practice, I've only seen this happen once when the setup was utterly deplorable, and I imagine it won't be likely I'll see it again, but thought it was technically correct.


Are you maybe mixing Setup with Shadows and dupes? Per the core rules, you may not place duplicates of unique cards in your setup.
You forgot the two big ones.

1) Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

and

2) Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
    • Kennon, Archrono, emptyrepublic and 6 others like this
@schi0384 - thanks! Yes, Hellholt Engineer (CbtC) can use this to great effect... for now (I'm assuming we're going to see some type of an errata for that card before Regional Season)

@Tobi - good ones, I do try to cover your setup point in this sentence: "Cards placed during setup are not considered to have entered play. This means that any effect that would trigger by that card being put into play or played from hand cannot be triggered." I feel like saying that text is "ignored" might be more confusing.

@Prophit618 - Bomb has the right of it. The rules are explicit on that one (pg. 9 of the Core Set rules).

@wildefox - how could I forget those!! ;-) Well done, Ser, well done.
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slothgodfather
Jan 09 2013 01:50 AM
@Tobi - what do you mean all cards are moribund during the plot phase?
Do reveal and take to hand cards like The Viper's Bannermen (PotS) and Widow's Watch (GotC) count against the draw cap?
no they dont have Draw in them, one of the reasons TVB is restricted
Paying for two of the same unique card during setup is not playing a duplicate, however as per the rules two copies of the same unique card will become duplicated when in play, such as using No Use For Grief or a discarded Darkstar. The distinction here is between placing and playing.

@Tobi - what do you mean all cards are moribund during the plot phase?


I'm not even sure this is correct. Last night, I flipped Valar against Called to Court (ODG) and so First Player was very important. If CTC is resolved first, then you can recall something to hand and save it from Valar, because when you then resolve that plot, *then* everything becomes moribund. Which is too bad for him, because he really wanted to go second, but I explained the situation. He wasn't even really trying to counter the Valar, he just wanted to bounce my maester and discard all his bling.

Paying for two of the same unique card during setup is not playing a duplicate, however as per the rules two copies of the same unique card will become duplicated when in play, such as using No Use For Grief or a discarded Darkstar. The distinction here is between placing and playing.

This is the wrong interpretation of the clause. Per Ktom, the reason NUFG dupes everything is because it's a special clause about all cards coming into play simultaneously.

http://www.fantasyfl...=4&efidt=617480
@Decathexis - while I understand your reasoning, this doesn't work. You have to remember that putting cards into setup is actually called "placing" cards and not "playing" them. Since you can't take actions during Setup, the card would have to already be duplicated if it were legal to do so (which it isn't). As Bomb points out, Shadows allows you to pay for a unique twice and then dupe it as it comes into play, but this doesn't work in Setup. The rules text is clear - "you may not place duplicates." The word "play" never comes into it.

@slothgodfather and @grimwalker - I'm pretty sure what Tobi was saying is that once a card goes moribund it remains moribund until the end of the entire Framework Action Window (which is always the case), but this is commonly misunderstood and does get overlooked. People tend to put all of their characters in the dead pile as soon as they see a Valar without waiting for all elements of the FAW to complete.
@celric - talism has the right of it. The only thing I would add is a card like Val (RotO) which says both "draw" and "reveal" - because it contains the word "draw" it does count against your draw cap.
I don't get to Icy fisherman example. Lets say I am the first player, and the one controlling the fisherman is second. I count gold, and than I can have my first player action, and only after that can the other person kneel the fisherman, So for example I have four gold, and i want to marshall a 4-cost card, I can marshall it, because for my first action I will not use any reducers, i will not play any other card, but spend 4 gold for that card. After i will have 0 gold, so my oppo cannot use the fisherman.
Or are you saying that counting gold is the FIRST action?
@Vincu - you're right, I should clarify that example. If you are First Player, then your scenario is correct as you will get the first action (counting gold is a Framework Event as part of the Framework Action Window prior to the Player Action Window). If you are second player, and FP controls the Fisherman, they will be able to take gold before you take any actions because FP always gets first action during a PAW.
Well, if you are first player, and happen to have the exact amount of gold that is needed for a single card that is the one you want to play, then you are not hit in any way by Ice Fisherman (TWoW). However, if you are not First Player, would want to combine a reducer with your gold, or would want to play more than one card from your hand...

Lesson of the day? With choke, initiative matters and the initiative penalty on Burned and Pillaged (FtC) really isn't just for show.
I've edited the article to include some more detail to clarify that specifically.
Hi i want to ask,you didn't say how do we deal when someone fogets renown or a passive,for let's say a phase,insted in challenges he wants to claim power for renown in or after counting Dominance.I have goten in fights for that because a lot of times i have responses that I was going to play like "Obey the King" if his char. has renown and he stands it for a second chalenge,but if he forgets,and it sleeps my mind since they are not my cards and he wants to claim the power in dominance it takes away my chance to kneel his character,so the game becomes very different if you tell me thats normal I lost my chance for to reposnd then i will just strat playing like that all the time its like cheating,but better
In my opinion, if you can easily go back and do things, then you should. That being said if the entire state of the game changes because of forgetting to do one thing because it would have triggered a huge domino effect, then you should not go back to claim that power and just move on with the game. Most of the time, claiming that power is relatively harmless, but in your example if it is easy to undo up to the point he claims that power for renown, it should be done.
Yeah - the mandatory passives thing can get complicated. The truth is that it is all players' responsibility to ensure mandatory passives fire. I would honestly say that since yours is a Response event, then it would be on you to ensure your opponent claimed Renown so you could activate your event. Your event is optional and the Renown is mandatory... so, it would behoove you to be sure Renown was claimed.

The truth is, if you get to Dominance and they forgot Renown, that Renown still technically "happened" as far as the game is concerned. Renown is actually one of the easier passives to deal with as it doesn't tend to cause a rewind in most cases (note that I say "most" cases).

In our local group, I use the following rule of thumb: if a mandatory passive has been missed and you're still in the same Round, then see if the players can agree to rewind based upon the amount of game data that has been revealed. If too much information has now been revealed and rewinding would adversely affect how the turn had been played, then you either need to agree to let it slide or call over a third party to rule on it. If it's not noticed until well into the next turn, you all just chalk it up as a learning experience and all work to avoid the problem going forward.

@slothgodfather and @grimwalker - I'm pretty sure what Tobi was saying is that once a card goes moribund it remains moribund until the end of the entire Framework Action Window (which is always the case), but this is commonly misunderstood and does get overlooked. People tend to put all of their characters in the dead pile as soon as they see a Valar without waiting for all elements of the FAW to complete.

Yes. For instance valar + called to court. I have Moroquo in play and chose to let called to court reveals first. I want to bring Moroquo to my hand, so he becomes Morribound:Hand. But he stays in play and I could use him to save another character, but he is not affected by the valar, because he is already moribound. Very often players would return him to the hand instantly and that is wrong. He would go to my hand at the end of the action window when all characters, who were killed by valar, would go to the deadpile.