148 replies to this topic

[Asklepios]

Well, kept it in and finally won, but possibly because I never drew it. I think it's gotta go out of the deck...

[IMABUNNEH]

On the groupthink, I've been convinced to abandon Lion. That military-defeat character was never seeing play, and while the extra turn from Stand Your Ground was pretty sweet it wasn't enough. Dragon it is!

 

Keep getting told to drop A Perfect Gift as well, and keep finding it useful, but as I keep losing games, I should probably try leaving it off.

 

Did you try using the standy event from Lion as part of your splash? My main reason when I splash Lion is usually for 3x that, then some other junk.

 

 

In general I'm erring back towards just splashing Lion. It feels so boring, but Mirumoto's Fury + Let Go is just too good in all matchups.

[FightingWalloon]

Noob looking to check my card evaluation skills.

I heard a podcast reviewing Crane that said Doji Whisperer was a mediocre card. That seemed way off to me. A 1 drop 0/3 seemed really strong to me, even with a blank text box.

Am I wrong?

[HidaHonk]

You are not. Crane Scorp is a very very tough deck to beat.

[Asklepios]

Noob looking to check my card evaluation skills.

I heard a podcast reviewing Crane that said Doji Whisperer was a mediocre card. That seemed way off to me. A 1 drop 0/3 seemed really strong to me, even with a blank text box.

Am I wrong?

 

Oh yeah, it's solid. Just depends where you are standing, as clearly Bayushi Liar is better. But that's a high bar, Whisperer compares favourably against most other 1-costs.

[sparrowhawk]

And sometimes she can be better than Liar.

Yesterday (so not a standard format), my honoured Doji Whisperer in military defence Outwitted mighty Torturi (I then won Fire Ring to dishonour him and Noble Sacrifice her).

Bayushi Liar cannot Outwit military defence. Whilst "-" can be an advantage for high end (such as Moto Horde) sometimes lured in or skill switched, it is actually a disadvantage for weenies who are often used in defence with Rout or Outwit.

Objectively, Whisperer probably ranks around 6th for 1 costers (Liar, Berserker, Doomed, Envoy, Sinister, Youth, Student = competitors) so it would be very high standards with such a limited pool to call her mediocre. Later with more cards, yes.

[Hakkor]

Cards should be compared to the average (1/1), not to other strong cards that do not even belong to the same clan and are not splashable. And it happens over and over again.

[Asklepios]

Cards should be compared to the average (1/1), not to other strong cards that do not even belong to the same clan and are not splashable. And it happens over and over again.

 

Sorry, but that's an untrue assertion. Cards can be compared however you like, so long as those making and reading the comparison are aware of the different roles.

 

Everybody knows that Liar is a Scorpion card and Whisperer is a Crane card, and that implies a lot of different stuff. That doesn't mean you can't make informed comparisons.

 

Nobody here was saying that Liar is "strictly superior" or any such nonsense. Just that it looks to be clearly better. 

 

Sparrowhawk is making good points on the "-" though: hadn't though of that as a drawback.

[Hakkor]

Nobody here was saying that Liar is "strictly superior" or any such nonsense. Just that it looks to be clearly better.

 

Then it should also be the added information: better "for what" and under what circunstances. When we value a card "better", generally speaking, I think that it's implied both cards are equivalent and fulfill the same role in the same deck.

 

The real comparisons should be in-faction, if the intent is to analyse the Crane deckbuilding. I mean, opinions are free but, for a Crane player, Bayushi Liar is not better for him because he just can't play it. Actually, playing Crane, I prefer to see a Bayushi liar in my opponent's board rather than other more troublesome 1 costers. That's why, when comparing, it's important to state in what aspects is better or worse.

 

And that will happen very often in this game, specially since Dinasty cards are not splashable.

[Atrus]

Both Crane 1-costers are great. Regarding to Doji Whisperer she is solid.

 

I also think that comparing Dynasty cards with another clan is a negative thing if you intent to study a clan's deckbuilding and game possibilities. Comparing is great for making oneself an idea of the game balance indeed, but saying that a card doesn't deserves a 5/5 just because in another clan are "better" cards is bullshit.

 

The comparison with Liar reminds me the same comparison with Naive Student. Comparing with Liar is inevitable, it's a great card, but are diferent factions and Naive student is excellent in Phoenix, who benefits from high glory (and can become -/6 if Honored, for 1 Fate). Whisperer is the same exact case, she is amazing and lets you use Outwit and For shame! in a military conflict, an excellent tool in Crane. In addition, when honored can threat a province on her own.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[FightingWalloon]

And sometimes she can be better than Liar.

Yesterday (so not a standard format), my honoured Doji Whisperer in military defence Outwitted mighty Torturi (I then won Fire Ring to dishonour him and Noble Sacrifice her).

Bayushi Liar cannot Outwit military defence. Whilst "-" can be an advantage for high end (such as Moto Horde) sometimes lured in or skill switched, it is actually a disadvantage for weenies who are often used in defence with Rout or Outwit.

Objectively, Whisperer probably ranks around 6th for 1 costers (Liar, Berserker, Doomed, Envoy, Sinister, Youth, Student = competitors) so it would be very high standards with such a limited pool to call her mediocre. Later with more cards, yes.

 

I do like the theme/fluff aspect of this.

 

A mighty warrior advances into battle ready to exact bloody vengeance, but then a skilled courtier arranges for the Emporer to require the warrior's services elsewhere at the crucial moment, and so he must leave the battlefield, his sword never drawn.

[Atrus]

Nobody wants to kill a beautiful Crane courtier XD

 

...well, maybe a Crab haha

[sparrowhawk]

I want to share the changes I made to the OP Crane deck because the deck has currently won all 5 games I have played with it and only had 2 of its provinces broken in 5 games. At least 3 of the 5 opponents (all different Clans but no mirror) I view as good card gamers from different games (Thrones 2, Netrunner, Magic) and one had a 4-0 win record before I beat him in my 3rd game (I'm a late starter, a recluse theoretician).


Clan: Crane (Dragon)
Influence: (12/13)

Stronghold:
1x Shizuka Toshi (Core Set #2)

Role:
1x Keeper of Fire (Core Set #216A)

Provinces (5)
Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (1/1) Water (1/1)
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Rally to the Cause (Core Set #23)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

Dynasty: (40)

Character: (37)
3x Asahina Artisan (Core Set #40)
1x Asahina Storyteller (Core Set #50)
3x Brash Samurai (Core Set #42)
3x Cautious Scout (Core Set #43)
3x Daidoji Nerishma (Core Set #46)
3x Doji Challenger (Core Set #47)
3x Doji Hotaru (Core Set #52)
3x Doji Whisperer (Core Set #41)
3x Guest of Honor (Core Set #51)
3x Kakita Asami (Core Set #48)
3x Kakita Kaezin (Core Set #49)
3x Keeper Initiate (Core Set #124)
3x Savvy Politician (Core Set #45)

Holding: (3)
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

Conflict: (40)

Character: (3)
3x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)

Attachment: (6)
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

Event: (31)
3x Admit Defeat (Core Set #147)
3x Assassination (Core Set #203)
3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x For Shame! (Core Set #207)
3x Let Go (Core Set #155)
3x Mirumoto’s Fury (Core Set #159)
2x Outwit (Core Set #212)
2x Rout (Core Set #213)
3x Voice of Honor (Core Set #145)
3x Way of the Crane (Core Set #146)


In my opinion, this is the L5R Good Stuff deck of Core Set - strong plays just keep coming.


How to play the deck:
Except vs Dragon, bid 5 whilst at 8+ Honour (your honoured claws it back) and switch to 1 whilst at 7- Honour.
Never not have 1F in your pool except near end of conflict (don't be afraid to pass early to deny pass bonus).
Usually explore attack first with a character that you can pump to break province unless you have a Challenger.
Value the benefit of doing an action in a conflict that avoids passing (e.g. triggering Manicured or Meditations).
Your key characters are Challenger and Guest - the latter is a win condition so mulligan it away for late game.


What I've learnt so far:

During dynasty phase, because of the pass bonus, there is a lot of bluffing and brinkmanship akin to Poker with a trade-off of giving information early vs getting your key mid-cost characters in play with long-term lifetime that you can protect.

During conflicts, the concept of zugzwang is incredibly relevant in this game, committing resources only when you need to. Action provinces are great in delaying your play, waiting to see if it's a break threat; if he passes without a break, it may be best to pass and lose the conflict, depending on ring effect.

There exists the strong concept of sente, gote and tenuki from Go linked to first player and Fate on rings. It reminds me of the significance of initiative in Conquest. That's why I disagree with hobby opinion on Way of the Unicorn and Way of the Phoenix.

Always represent the threat, even to the point of pausing slightly if you are bluffing (e.g. always try to get honoured overlap, even if no Voice). Inversely, do not pause if you have the 0-cost answer like Voice of Honour or Assassination. This is all poker skills, why I only play face-to-face. Depending on your appraisal of your opponent, it's often wise to seamlessly decline the opportunity to cancel an event that does not result in a break or break denied or even Let Go an attachment the moment it is played (unless a Watch Commander). Don't take the first cancel bait unless it loses you cancel cover or a province (you really want to use them for Fate-costing events).

He who flurries last with his key cards often wins.

[Hakkor]

That's a strategy that works well with honor loss mitigation mechanics in general. Do you miss the Political Rival in the deck? How well does it work against a 5 bidding Scorpion or Unicorn that is plenty as you in control resources?

[sparrowhawk]

That's a strategy that works well with honor loss mitigation mechanics in general. Do you miss the Political Rival in the deck? How well does it work against a 5 bidding Scorpion or Unicorn that is plenty as you in control resources?

I have never physically played with Political Rival but rate it highly - as a splash in Political-deficient Clans like Lion and Crab. In fact, I believe a lot of the Crane Conflict cards are cuckoos, designed as an incentive to splash Crane for other Clans. Crane have just enough really good cards for themselves that, combined with the best neutrals and the most cost-efficient splash, results in an incredibly high quality conflict deck of tricks (and I do love my "tricksies" - I was an Azorius or Esper player in Magic).

My fear of the Scorpion match-up was why I changed the OP deck to include 3 Stewards. I laughed when a Steward appeared to single-handedly shame a long line of arriving Unicorn characters into submission. And that's key - redundancy of bow. Because For Shame is not once per conflict, you have 9 bow effects at cost 1 in the conflict deck. I'm tempted to try Doji Gift Giver as defensive stalwarts to add to the bow.

My Challenger lured Scorpion out of position into wrong conflicts. I ruthlessly Assassinated a 2-cost with 1 Fate at first opportunity to minimise Stronghold loss, happy to bid 5 to draw my 0-1 cost cards while Scorpion cards are a lot more expensive. I think he would agree that he is keen to improve his game so I don't think I have been tested fully against Scorpion. The 3x Stewards of Law most definitely make it advantage Crane in the match-up.

The Unicorn deck I beat had won 4-0 until then and has made me reappraise how dangerous Unicorn are. He broke a province early while the board was small but after I did not hesitate to decline a cancel opportunity (Assassination) whilst he had 3 Fate unspent, he thought the coast was clear (looking at discards is such an obvious tell - I was worried it was a bluff). The tempo loss was too great, as was the hilarious line of shame-bowing incident.

My proudest play was facing a Prodigy with 2 Fate then he passed with 3 Fate. No surprise, an Above Question appeared after bids. He played Wanderer on the Prodigy and then attacked visible Manicured Garden (he wisely feared alternatives) with Military Void (as he had 2 Keepers in discards), coverting my honoured Kaezin with Katana (Voice cover online). I had Imperial Favour (Military) so defended with Artisan. 2 vs 1. I zugzwang with Garden. He uses Stronghold. 4-1. So he is going for the break (I am 2-0 up). I pass. He plays a Katana on him. 6-1. I play Way of the Crane on my Politician to also honour my Artisan. 6-3. He plays a Daisho on him. 8-3. I play Let Go on Above Question. Pass. I Assassinate Prodigy with 3 attachments +2 Fate on him. I win Void 0-3 (2 Keepers in his discards). I play Fan on honoured Politican then try for my third province break in Water Political. It is Restoration but playing Fan first dropped me to 4 cards (I bid knowing I can play down to 4 before declaring an attack). He defends with Swordsmith. 5-2. Fan on Swordsmith to pre-empt Stronghold. 5-4. I zugzwang by playing a second Katana on Kaezin. Second Fan on Swordsmith. 5-6. Admit Defeat. 5-0. Fury on Politician. Voice the Fury. He has no Assassination so province breaks and I ready my honoured Artisan. He has no other characters (he later explains he had Indomitable Will for 6 MIL Prodigy to defend Miiltary and did not expect to lose) so I attack his Entrenched Position Stronghold with honoured Kaezin with 2x Katana and honoured Artisan + Military Favour. 12-0. What I'm proud of most is how I strung him along to rely on his 2x Katana Prodigy to win then Indomitable Will, spending no wasted resources in defence until he had gone all in before I pulled the rug by using my Let Go I had all along. I am also proud of that zugzwang of buffing Kaezin who wasn't even in the conflict, again reeling in even more commitment before I played Admit Defeat.

The Clans I haven't played against are Crane and Phoenix. I played Lion with an earlier variant (that had Noble Sacrifice - the threat is often good enough) and he had an awful start (Toturi killed). I think Lion will obviously break some provinces. He was not a strong player compared to the others so I don't claim I've tested it against Lion properly. I suspect Lion is the greatest threat to the deck because I have no answers to Brawler and Ready for Battle totally disrupts my 9 bowing cards and aggro-(soft)-control game.

[rag]

We held our Launch event last Saturday. A great crane player won (w/ scorpion splash). He'll possibly share his deck and techs here I don't want to steal that from him.

[Hakkor]

We held our Launch event last Saturday. A great crane player won (w/ scorpion splash). He'll possibly share his deck and techs here I don't want to steal that from him.

 

Just with three copies of poison in Crane makes its Stronghold terrifying. The rest is up to each ones taste.

[HidaHayabusa]

Actually I like Phoenix splash much more. Scorpion splash and the +3 counterspells, is very reactive. Phoenix splash has the Kimono that is nuts in Crane.

[DojiAkihiko]

I play a very similar deck to sparrowhawk. I can attest to its ability to steam roll the opponent. Mirumotos Fury has just won me games, and is the perfect defensive counterpoint to admit defeat. Let Go is just so universally good, and there has always been a target for it either to get rid of a possitive card on an opposing character or getting rid of a negative card on my own characters. It just does more of what I want the deck to do. The real trick of the deck is the massive amounts of 0 conflict with only 1 costs other cards. Crane plays such a control game, and with the ability to control how many cards you draw it shines. With the honor gain inherent in Crane paying for banzai, assassin, or card draw is no big deal. Use it like a resource to control your opponent and steamroll their provinces.

Some crane cards I don't use, and my reasoning:
Political Rival: I like him, but he is just too expensive for the deck, and unstreamlines the deck. I want to draw more cheap game winning control cards in my conflict deck, not expensive characters.
Above Question: Pay 1 to get the ability on Honored Guest, which can be let go. I run 3x Honored Guest and see no reason to again unstreamline the deck to include more of the effect. It isn't a terrible card either though, it just doesn't fit into this deck.
Duelist Training: I usually don't want to be wasting honor on dueling, and I definitely don't want to pay one to telegraph that duel. I'd rather spend honor on cards and fate on superior control. Unless we get some serious dueling support I never see me using this card.
Height of Fashion: Costs too much for what it does, especially since it's always telegraphed.
Noble Sacrifice: Good card if your splashing more dishonor decks or against scorpion. I originally had 2 in my deck, but the opportunity to use them never really came up. Has anti synergy with steward.
The Perfect Gift: I hate giving anything to another player, and I'd rather use the card slot for more control. Bid more aggressively if you need more cards.
Doji Gift Giver: Again I hate giving the opponent anything. Also the cost is so much greater than your other bow options. It's also highly telegraphed and uses a minimum of 3 fate. I want these effects on my conflict cards and my characters breaking provinces.
As ahi a Storyteller: I play a one of. I am also of the opinion 4 costs should be minimal, and Honored Guest has the better control ability
Artisan Academy: The Imperial Storehouse is better, and you can ditch it whenever to draw AND free up the province. I also only want to run minimal holdings, so x3 Imperial Storehouse it is.

I'll add a section on cards I do use, how I use them and why when I get spare time.

[Asklepios]

Thoughts on your thoughts:

 

Political Rival is really strong, in my opinion. He may look like he costs 3, but actually, when you are planning to play him you're often looking at passing a step earlier than you otherwise would have on the Dynasty phase, which gives you a Fate you might not have seen otherwise. And then for that cost you got 6 on the defence, 3 and covert on the attack, and a courtier trait. Also, it's a rare place to be able to put dishonour safely, which is great for those of us who splash Scorpion cancels. Needless to say, he's even better played within Scorpion decks who love that trait and 0 glory even more.

 

Above Question, I agree, is weak for Crane. Great for Dragon though. Same for Duelist Training.

 

Height of Fashion is poor, I agree.

 

Noble Sacrifice I run one copy in Crane, as Court Games or Fire Ring give targeted discard, and that makes it an instant kill effect on even a clan champion. Not quite as good as I Can Swim is in Scorpion, which is why one copy is plenty.

 

Perfect Gift I really wanted to like, but have cut for now as well. I remain convinced that card will shine one day.

 

Doji Gift Giver, I agree, is not great. Sure it can discourage solo defending, but for the same fate expenditure we can get a Political Rival to bypass the defender altogether.

 

Agree Storyteller is nowhere is good as Honored Guest. Agree Artisan Academy is worse than Imperial Storehouse.

 

Additional thoughts:

 

Good Omen is surprisingly solid for Crane. So is Keeper Initiate.